Kerrville Texas Judging - Page 2
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  1. #11
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    Aug 2005
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    Default Re: Kerrville Texas Judging

    Quote Originally Posted by TracyeGibson View Post
    BTW Dave, I would love to get together with you some time so you can show me 'old school' how to mount and spray a print for competition.

    That's like asking someone to show you how to hit your thumb with a hammer, but if that's what you want, I'll be happy to show you.

    Call anytime.
    ____________________
    Dave Cisco M.Photog, Cr., CPP, F-TPPA

  2. #12
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    Aug 2005
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    165

    Default Re: Kerrville Texas Judging

    Quote Originally Posted by KevynSchneider View Post
    Also, let me clarify the term "straight portrait". I don't care if a legion of people collaborated to make it.

    Since you were there, this will have meaning for you.
    I wasn't there this year, just know what the catagories were. I think it is funny that the 'collaboration' process doesn't bother you but all of the other does. For years I wouldn't enter because I HATED that only the photog got credit when I knew for a fact that if it was presented S.O.C. NO way would it merit.
    Tracye Gibson, M. Photog.
    www.Tracye.smugmug.com
    Talent is the ability to do hard work in a consistently constructive direction over a long period of time" - James Whistler

  3. #13
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    Aug 2005
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    165

    Default Re: Kerrville Texas Judging

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_Cisco View Post
    That's like asking someone to show you how to hit your thumb with a hammer, but if that's what you want, I'll be happy to show you.

    Call anytime.
    Haaaaa!!!! I know, but since I am printing my own and getting into 'print embellishments' on inkjet prints it would be interesting to learn.
    Tracye Gibson, M. Photog.
    www.Tracye.smugmug.com
    Talent is the ability to do hard work in a consistently constructive direction over a long period of time" - James Whistler

  4. #14
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    Jan 2007
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    New Orleans, LA.
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    Default Re: Kerrville Texas Judging

    Quote Originally Posted by KevynSchneider View Post
    After speaking with some of them after the competition, the best TPPA judges seemed to be the newer ones with the least amount of PPA charm-necklace danglies. Other than that it appeared to just be a good-ol-boys club. All that was missing was the deck of cards, whiskey and cigars. My apprehension is that the good-ol-boy 20 lb. necklace club is where the national judges come from. Kevyn
    I fail to understand why some people have such strong negative feelings about those in our profession who have become successful. The fact that a person is wearing a "20 lb necklace" is because they have been actively pursuing their profession, become successful, and have GIVEN BACK to the profession by TEACHING OTHERS what they have learned. Most of those gold bars on the "20 lb necklaces" indicate SERVICE or SPEAKING merits whereby they have taken time away from their own busy and successful businesses to TEACH OTHERS - in short, the "20 lb.necklace" means that THEY CARE. To me, that is something that should be admired and appreciated, and not ridiculed and put down by being called the "good-ol-boy 20 lb necklace club". It always seems like the people who put down those with the "20 lb. neckklaces" always seem to be those who don't enter print competition, don't share their knowledge, have few if any merits and have no intention of giving back anything to this profession that has provided all of us our livings - sort of like "sour grapes" ... Some of them aren't even PPA members ... ... ... But of course, that's just my opinion.
    Last edited by Rick_Massarini; 07-24-2009 at 03:36 AM.
    The best way to gain for yourself is to give OF yourself.
    - - - So get out there and volunteer for something ...


    Rick Massarini, M. Photog., Cr., CPP., F-PPLA
    PPLA Past President; 97th Recipient PPA Directors Award
    ASP SouthWest District Rep. & ASP Convention Booth Chairman


  5. #15
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    Aug 2005
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    North Platte, NE
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    Default Re: Kerrville Texas Judging

    Kevyn
    I just wanted to chime in here on a few points. First on Michael Gan's "Oh. Here we go again." comment. That was refering to post like yours that say things and make assumptions about competition like "Unfortunately, TPPA Kerrville Competition has dramatically reduced the value I perceive in PPA print competitions." This observation was on a print competition that WAS NOT a PPA print competition. To be a PPA competiton it has has to have trained approved affiliate judges. The are the only "PPA competition" for your area would be the SWPPA competition held in the fall. NON PPA competitions do not have to (and most do not) seat PPA affiliated judges, they may use Masters, non masters, speakers or whom ever they want. To call a local competition, such as you attended, a PPA competition would be the same as calling a high school basketball game and NBA game. PPA and PEC has no input whatsoever in local competitions.

    The next issue is that as Tracy said "Just FYI, Kerrville had Illustrative, Commercial and Electronic Imaging catagories along with photographic open and wedding".
    Did you happen consider that maybe the images that you were describing that were heavily worked (PS or Painter, collaged etc.) were possibly in the Electronic Imaging catagory, meaning they were being judged on the manipulation itself and how well it was done? I do not know what was in which catagories, I was not there but from the discription you gave I would have to consider that this is at the very least a possibility.

    You also made a comment about which were the best judges "You know what is funniest (and saddest)? After speaking with some of them after the competition, the best TPPA judges seemed to be the newer ones with the least amount of PPA charm-necklace danglies. Other than that it appeared to just be a good-ol-boys club."
    Again I just want to point out that I do not know who the judges were. I have to wonder though do you know when you talk about the PPA Degrees (which by the way you very degradingly refer to as "charm-necklace danglies"), do you know which degrees those judges had? Was it the Master of Photography, Master of Electronic Imaging, Master Artist or Craftsman Degrees. Were all the degrees PPA? or were they for service to their own local, state or regional associations? Have they even taken the judging class or done any of the prerequsits to become an affiliated judge? I am not belittling any of the degrees (these people worked hard to earn them) nor any of the judges. They are giving of their time and knowledge to associations and members like yourself with out a thought of profit for themselves (they are, if paid, usually it is something towards their travel and room expense only). I am also not trying to belittle you but to maybe show some of the differences in the competitions that you do not appear to know about. You are also deciding, after talking to some of them for a short time, which judges were the best or worst with out knowing much about them and with minimal knowledge about print competition. Can you explain to me what credintials you ahve that make you a more accurate judge of photography then that panel? After all, by your own statements, you have not been a photographer for 20 years. I am sure you would guffaw at some one coming into your IT field and making rash statements about what was right and what was wrong with the way your industry evaluates itself. I am sure you would be offended if that outsider declared you and your colleagues a "good ole boys club" and professed to be a better judge of good IT work then you - who has actually mde your living in IT for the last 20 years. How much stock would you put into that outsiders opinions?

    Being an affiliated judge is not a good ol boys club. We take the judgings very seriously. We are evaluated after every judging. We have to be open to new styles as well as aware of quality photography even if it is not a style we personally use or even enjoy. It is not a situation of once you become a judge you are always a judge. Judges work hard to maintain the status of affiliate juror. We have to stay current (both in training and in meriting our work). We have to be able to see all the positives and negitives within the image. This brings me to your comment "The very best illustrative image did not get a 100 because the photographer's face was in it; the judges didn't want to appear overtly biased, even though the other multiple 100s that same photographer scored were all obviously his." How do you know those judges were conspiring to make themselves look good? Maybe there was a technical flaw and they could not with good conscience give it a 100? Tell me, did you see all the judges slink off to the bathroom together so they could decide not to give a 100 to that makers final print? Did you see them pass notes to each other? You are accusing that panel of a lack of integrity. Basically you are saying they were dishonest. Again, I assume the association brought in people they had faith in, who they knew were knowledgable. I am sure they did not bring in an IT person, who left photography 20 years ago - and there is a reason why they didn't.

    If you look at the average score of meriting prints by category, I bet it would really highlight my point. I believe you would find that the Illustrative category had a high averaged score and the Portrait category had a low averaged score. I believe this would demonstrate the bias favoring illustrative style images on the part of the judges.

    You would be making assumptions. Even if the illustrative prints scored higher it doesn't follow that the judges were biased. My interpetation would be that the illustrative prints entered at this particular judging were better then the portraits. Judges have to score what is set in front of them. If no portraits worthy of a score above 84 were entered then they can't give a score above 84 on a portrait. FWIW, the highest scored print in my state this year was a portrait. It scored 96. Both in 2007 & 2008 at least one of my loan prints were portraits. I am an affiliate juror. If there were such a bias as you mistakenly believe, don't you think I would know that and not enter portraits? After all as a member of the "good ole boys club" I would be privy to that knowledge. I can tell you emphatically that no such bias exists. And respectfully, having entered prints every year since 1981, being an affiliate juror for over 15 years, having judged 4 out of the last 6 international competitions, I know more about this then you do.

    It comes down to if you want your opinions to be taken seriously, then don't insult the judges. Don't profess to know which is the best illustrative image and which images are stellar and near perfect after a 20 year absence and at your first ever competition. If you want to effect change, take the time to learn. Don't assume one local competition makes you an authority or even really provides any valid understanding of the process. Know what you are talking about before you make pronouncements. Otherwise your statements just make you look uninformed and confused. Your comments won't be taken seriously unless you have the knowledge to back them up. Like I said, I would never presume to come into an IT arena and insult the experts in that field, make statements that they were biased and insinuate that they were unethical based my small knowledge of that world. Do all judges, affiliate or otherwise the same courtesy.

    Keith
    Keith A. Howe
    M.Photog.,M.Artist, Cr.,D.F.Ph.

  6. #16
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    Oct 2008
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    229

    Default Re: Kerrville Texas Judging

    Consider the bait taken.

  7. #17
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    Jan 2007
    Location
    New Orleans, LA.
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    3,572

    Default Re: Kerrville Texas Judging

    Quote Originally Posted by mrbarton View Post
    Consider the bait taken.
    What is that supposed to mean ?
    The best way to gain for yourself is to give OF yourself.
    - - - So get out there and volunteer for something ...


    Rick Massarini, M. Photog., Cr., CPP., F-PPLA
    PPLA Past President; 97th Recipient PPA Directors Award
    ASP SouthWest District Rep. & ASP Convention Booth Chairman


  8. #18
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    Jan 2006
    Location
    Alton, IL
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    618

    Default Re: Kerrville Texas Judging

    Just a note.

    If I can remember that far back, I have never entered anything but images of people for competition. I have done fairly well...
    john

  9. #19
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    Aug 2005
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    North Platte, NE
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    Default Re: Kerrville Texas Judging

    Quote Originally Posted by mrbarton View Post
    Consider the bait taken.
    Are you suggesting that Keyvn was baiting me and I bit? I should hope that he has better things to do with his time then purposefully set out to bait people. That kind of behavior is adolescent at best and even though I don't know Keyvn, nothing about his posts suggests that kind of immaturity. If I am misunderstanding your meaning Micheal, I sincerely apologize.

    Keith
    Keith A. Howe
    M.Photog.,M.Artist, Cr.,D.F.Ph.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
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    229

    Default Re: Kerrville Texas Judging

    You guys are all good. I was just kidding. I didn't mean anything negative by it. Sincerely. Occasionally there are threads here that get everyone a bit excited. That's a good thing. Passion is what fuels creativity and growth. There are, however, posts on here every once in awhile that are made to get people riled up. Nothing does that like competition.

    I will say this. I've entered every category in competition and have "qualified" for both masters for January (the waiting game isn't much fun). I will continue to enter a wide variety of images. I use that to stretch my vision and refine my technique. Each time I enter I find another facet of my craft that I didn't know about. I honestly feel that many people forget that a camera is just a box with a hole in it. We can use that to do infinitely more than we are. We have only used the darkroom to a fraction of it's potential and there is still more to discover. The same goes for digital imaging. What we know about any of this is very limited compared to what we will know in 5 years, 10 years, or even 100. Consider where digital imaging was 10 years ago. The only way we are going to push that envelope is to be a part of it. Heck, someone's going to do it, why not you?

    To say that photography is only SOC portraits is beyond limiting. We each need to make our rules. If someone chooses only to enter client work I have absolutely no problem with it. For someone to imply that it's an absolute is another story. I have my rules and one of them is to let people do their thing. I'm probably one of THOSE PEOPLE that other photographers don't like to compete with (I say with and not against). I guess I enter strange stuff sometimes. I'm alright with it. Competition has dramatically effected my business from every front. To top it off I offer many of my prints as fine art images that are for sale. Every single image that scores above an 80 at a PPA Affiliate gets displayed. For that, I guess every image that hits the turntable is a client image no matter how abstract. The press they create is great.

    We are in a time when the economy sucks (there I said it). Not only that, but people are fleeing to photography as an outlet. There is nothing wrong with that. Some people see it as an easy quick buck. That's just a fact. I also see nothing wrong with that. It's a bit tough to swallow I agree, BUT it's just a fact. Studios are going under at an alarming rate. SO, there's more photographers and the same number of clients. At this time I'm sure as heck going to make sure that my technique is solid, and that my images look as different from my neighbor's as I can make it. When people say "the average client is not going to understand that" I can say that FINALLY I'm reaching my target audience. The average client is going to photographer that is charging $50 and giving away a CD of the images. Like I said, you have to make your own rules. Personally I'm not that interested in "old school" at the moment. I'm more interested in being a part of where this is all headed. Straight up, I'd much rather lead than follow under the circumstances.

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