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Karen_Linsley
05-21-2007, 08:41 PM
Ok guys, I am going to start early preparing for submission in August. The directions say: "The images should be prepared as they are for a client, (as opposed to competition/salon images)."

That said, these are all images done for actual jobs, ordered and loved by my clients.

Please let me know what you think. Thanks.

Karen_Linsley
05-21-2007, 08:43 PM
that last one was the last image, #20...here's #1

Karen_Linsley
05-21-2007, 08:44 PM
this is #2

Karen_Linsley
05-21-2007, 08:46 PM
here is #3

Karen_Linsley
05-21-2007, 08:47 PM
here is #4

Karen_Linsley
05-21-2007, 08:50 PM
I'm going to try and get more than one in a post, hopefully 5, 6 and 7

Karen_Linsley
05-21-2007, 08:51 PM
two at a time is the max, here's 7 and 8

Karen_Linsley
05-21-2007, 08:53 PM
here's 9 and 10

Karen_Linsley
05-21-2007, 08:55 PM
here's 11 and 12

Karen_Linsley
05-21-2007, 08:58 PM
Here's 13 and 14.

Thanks for the help everyone. By the way, at this point my business is mostly weddings, although I do seniors now, as well as portraits, and head shots for real estate agents. The ratio is changing, but still mostly weddings.

Karen_Linsley
05-21-2007, 09:00 PM
here's 15 and 16

Karen_Linsley
05-21-2007, 09:02 PM
here's 17 and 18

Karen_Linsley
05-21-2007, 09:03 PM
and last but not least, #19

Karen_Linsley
05-21-2007, 09:41 PM
here's a possible that I took last week. I would probably delete #20 and replace with this one. This session was for her promos, she will hang this one in her office on the wall and ordered another for her business cards.

Karen_Linsley
05-21-2007, 09:43 PM
here's another one from another wedding I did just last week.

David_A._Lottes
05-21-2007, 09:51 PM
Hi Karen
Here are the ones I'd use if I were you. 1,2,3,6,8,9,11,12,13,14,17,19. I'd dig around for more like those because as you said your just transitioning into seniors and other portraits with the bulk of your work being weddings. When I look over the group I see two photographers, the great work of a seasoned wedding photographer and the beginnings of a great portrait photographer. For CPP submission I'd stick with your strength, maybe only two or three non-wedding images. But do keep the lady with her dog, that's beautiful! I think the last time I submitted images 16 out of the 20 were wedding which is a pretty accurate income to percentage ratio for me. 20% from portraits, 80% from weddings. With a little corporate event gravy on the side and some class reunions and clubs spinkled in for flavor. ;)

Karen_Linsley
05-21-2007, 11:34 PM
Thank you David! I appreciate your time!

D._Craig_Flory
05-22-2007, 12:48 PM
Hi Karen;

A number of years ago we had an ex-president of our state association take 4 tries before he passed the C.P.P. Exam. So I am crossing my fingers, eyes, and toes that your images pass in June. Hmmmm, you passed the written exam because of a road trip to Pennsylvania. Maybe you need another trip to Pa. for the image submission. ;)

I like the following 1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 9, 12, 13, 16, 17 plus both possibles. I agree that your portraits need just a touch of fine tuning yet. In making image choices, sometimes we are too close to make a decision. I know that's why I had 6 16X20's printed up for our April convention, even though I could only enter four ... indecision. I was too emotionally close to my own work. Please post some more possibles. What are the percentages you told PPA of your work ? If you are only doing 10% seniors you will only need two images. So how many will you need to submit for each category of work ?

Joseph_Miska
05-22-2007, 01:15 PM
Karen,

Good luck! I can't help with what will pass certification, but I have to say that I really like the energy and life that you capture with all your images. I agree with David that the lady with the dog is great. One minor nit to watch: on 16 and 20 alternative, the horizons are both tipped a little clockwise. It's minor, but I notice it.

Again, good luck.

Joe

Karen_Linsley
05-22-2007, 02:37 PM
Thanks!

Craig: I think I told PPA that 60% of my business is weddings, but I will have to look it up because I forget precisely. I do have many more possibles, I will post later, I am not at my main computer right now. You are right, I have a difficult time selecting what to include! It's funny, I thought it would be just the opposite: that I would have a hard time passing the written and an easy time with the images. Maybe I do need to fly out to PA with my laptop full of images and have you help me select. :eek:

I'm tallying up votes, so far it looks like 1, 2, 3, 8, 9,12, 13 and 17 are keepers, plus the two possibles so far.

Karen_Linsley
05-26-2007, 04:58 PM
Here are two more for possible inclusion.

D._Craig_Flory
05-29-2007, 05:49 PM
Hi Karen;

I will not suggest that you add either of these. Please post some more.

Rory_Schweighart
05-29-2007, 06:37 PM
I like 2 3 8 9 10 and the masage table.

Straighten the horizon and on 10 crop a little off the top.

Karen_Linsley
05-29-2007, 10:23 PM
Hi Karen;

I will not suggest that you add either of these. Please post some more.

Craig, wow! I like those! It is times like this that I know what people have been telling me my entire life is true: I march to the beat of a different drummer.

Rory, thank you so much, I appreciate the feedback!

How about these two?

Rory_Schweighart
05-30-2007, 03:01 PM
no on those 2 imo

Mark_Levesque
05-30-2007, 03:17 PM
Karen-

Are you looking at your histograms? Both of those would seem to be bunched to the left, indicating underexposure. I understand that you may have a dark aim to your artistic vision, but you can achieve darkness through shadows while maintaining a correct exposure, which will also serve to increase contrast.

Karen_Linsley
05-31-2007, 05:27 AM
Thank you Rory and Mark.

Mark, I do look at histograms for the first shot of a given situation, adjust if necessary, then don't refer back to them again. It's been a while since I've look at the histograms of those last two, but I will go back to the raw file and check. I don't know that I have "a dark aim to your artistic vision," but it sounds very exotic! ;)

Seriously, my artistic vision has always been to portray my subjects as realistically as possible, while making them look as good as possible. I also know that my work has been called "minimalist" in the past.

D._Craig_Flory
05-31-2007, 02:37 PM
Hi Karen;

I wish your group out there was still going. You could take a whole bunch of images along to a meeting and poll all Masters (especially afilliated jurors) to see which 20 they liked best. I also wish you could attend our Pa. state meeting on June 10th and 11th. We have lots of members who are Masters as well as judges and affiliated jurors too.

I know that the California groups are a good distance away. But, have you thought about making a visitation to a studio of a well respected Master after calling and asking permission ? When I travel I call ahead and ask to visit studios and maybe this could work for you to get your 20 picked out.

Karen_Linsley
06-01-2007, 01:01 PM
That's a good idea Craig. I did contact one and ask him to review it for me, I never heard back from him....:( But I will try a different one if I don't pass soon. I am very grateful for the help you and others have given me and really appreciate the time.

On the affitilate group, I am investigating starting a new one...:)

PPA sent me a letter and told me to upload my 20 to portfolios.com for another chance, they are due up today, so I will be uploading them soon. I will keep everyone posted.

David_A._Lottes
06-01-2007, 01:26 PM
Hi Karen
Regarding your density I just pushed the mid level a little on this one and it brightened up. The info is there so you might try tweaking levels on a few of the other darker ones. I think when viewed as a group this one fits well with your other selections.

Mark_Levesque
06-01-2007, 02:10 PM
PPA sent me a letter and told me to upload my 20 to portfolios.com for another chance, they are due up today, so I will be uploading them soon. I will keep everyone posted.
Oh, great. Serves me right for not paying attention to the deadline. I haven't even thought about selecting my 20 yet. It's definitely not going to happen today, so I guess it'll be the next review period.

Cheri_MacCallum
06-01-2007, 02:16 PM
Before I moved away from Atlanta, I was one of the judges for certification submission images along with several wonderful photographers. I agree with what has been said here, and want to add...work on your natural light. You show a lot of outdoor work and one of the points on our evaluation form is "good use of natural light".

You're on the right track, but here I see subjects in unflattering direct sun, subjects in shade with spotty sunlight and subjects with no light reflected back into the face and eyes. I know a lot of these wedding images you have no control there, but the protraits are another story. A simple use of scrims and reflectors would improve these images! Maybe even different times of day!

Good luck

Karen_Linsley
06-01-2007, 05:39 PM
Thank you David and Cheri;

I appreciate all the feedback and help. The judging is June 11. I will let you know what transpires.

Cheri, can you please be more specific about which images you thing are in shade with spotty sunlight, and which subjects with no light directed back into the face? I just went and reviewed all the images and frankly I don't see that.

Re: the available light issue. My clients come to Tahoe specifically to be photographed with the views in the background. They don't want pretty gardens ( have one, they prefer going to the beach or an overlook point!) They want the backgrounds to show up, crisp and clear and bright. The only way to do this is to use off camera flash or reflector. If I go available light, then I have to turn my subjects with their faces towards the lake: no views, BIG client complaints.

The certification rules specifically state that we are to submit work done for clients. But what I have heard, over and over again, is that in acuality what the committee doing the judging for cert really wants is work done for print comp, because it is judged the same way.

So there is this dichotomy going on that is really quite frustrating. If they are judging using print comp rules, then they should state that, not state that they want work done for clients.

David_A._Lottes
06-01-2007, 06:05 PM
Hi Karen
It's a sticky wicket no doubt about that. On one hand they don't want images of sunflowers if your a weddng photographer but on the other hand they do use the 12 elements. Instead of looking for 80 and up they look for 75and up. It is frustrating. I'm glad Cheri is here to give us the inside scoop. Also keep in mind they are judged as a group not individually like print comp. And its a panel so one judge can average out another. I was glad to see Cheri understands that weddings need to meet a slightly different standard of criteria. I was begining to think there weren't any judges left who understood that. It is a good idea to tell yourself that every print in your submissions should be an 80. That way even if they are all 78s you'll still make it. Hang in there.:)

Cheri_MacCallum
06-01-2007, 06:42 PM
0n 0015, spotty light. 0019, no light in eyes, or at least what I can see here. The image at the spa, spotty light with harsh light on woman's arm. 0003 (I think), from what I can tell, the subjects are not really getting any light. 0011 (bride and bridesmaid) light is coming from the side and it looks like fill flash ( or reflector) is causing harsh shadows, 0012 because of over head sun, you have harsh shadows on bride's face.

"The certification rules specifically state that we are to submit work done for clients."

While this is true, we can all improve what we do for our clients!

Karen_Linsley
06-02-2007, 06:04 AM
Hi Cherie;

Thanks. I appreciate that. I agree that improvement on the work for clients is always on my list of things to do, which is why I started on this certification journey in the first place. I still think that either the rules for certification submission need to be changed, or the way they are judged needs to be changed.

So, I would like to explore further about #12, because this images illustrates perfectly what happens in the majority of weddings that I photograph. This image was taken at a ski resort. The couple specifically got married there because they met there, and most of their courtship was done skiing at this resort. The meadow in which they are standing has absolutely no trees anywhere, but they wanted that mountain to be in the background. Timing was not chosen by me, nor would I have been able to do this image any other time during the day, as we had to get in a car and drive for several miles to get this shot. The couple specifically scheduled time during the wedding to go and take photos in this location. I think this illustrates perfectly the difference between an image created for the client and one created for print comp. Would I enter this in print comp? No, for precisely the reasons you stated. But this image was ordered quite a bit by my clients, and the locals around here love it. It shows the ski resort and the meadow perfectly, even the resort has a copy to show to prospective brides and grooms. According to the certification rules, this image should be great, a perfect addition to the lineup of images. But since judging is done by print comp rules instead, of course the image is not scoring well.

What I am trying to point out is that there is a contradiction between what the certification rules say and what actually happens at judging, and I think that needs to be corrected. I am not saying there is no room for improvement in my work.

DianeDavis
06-02-2007, 06:41 AM
We'll be looking forward to hearing your results Karen-- Good Luck!

Cheri_MacCallum
06-02-2007, 09:48 AM
To go into #12 more. My suggestions would be to, if they wanted what was in the background, turn them just a little and use a fill reflector. Being sure to not place it where it would flatten everything out, but placing it where it's still giving them some directional light. That should help cut down on the harsh shadows on the bride's face.

Karen_Linsley
06-02-2007, 02:12 PM
Thank you Cheri. I've got outdoor weddings next week, and you have given me much to think about. I've got a wedding on a bluff overlooking the lake, a wedding on a beach, a wedding at a golf resort, a wedding on a pier, and one wedding indoors at the local Catholic church. (by the way, only two of these weddings include the reception, the others are ceremony and formals only, and they are stretched out over three days, not just on Saturday and Sunday. Such is life in the summer in Lake Tahoe) My plan is to come away from each with images that I can use for certification or for print comp, because that is my next step after being certified.

Cheri, I've been on this forum since its inception, and am one of the moderators here, and just want to tell you that I greatly value your input. We have to read even the threads we aren't necessarily interested in, just to keep track of things, and you are all over the place providing valuable information. It is great to have you here, thank you.

Cheri_MacCallum
06-02-2007, 03:43 PM
Wow, thanks Karen!!!

Derek_Alvarez
06-02-2007, 04:02 PM
I'm ok with almost all of them but I'd toss #7 and the B&G for your Post 21 it a little to close cropped and flat lit
and not sure how I feel about # 12 it's too centered and little stiff

Karen_Linsley
06-03-2007, 02:07 AM
Thanks Derek! Yes, you were in agreement with everyone else about #7. I tossed it already. I sort of threw that one in at the last minute as an availble light image.

The images have been submitted, they tell me they are judging again on the 11th of June, will keep you posted.

Thanks!

Deb_Wat
06-04-2007, 06:00 AM
do we now have the option to upload our images? I did not find that anywhere on the cpp site.

D._Craig_Flory
06-04-2007, 12:38 PM
Hi Deb;

No, there are two ways to submit images - prints or on a DVD. Here is the line from the rules: Images may now be submitted in 2 ways: Print & DVD Video

As one of the liaisons I will pass along your desire to have images sent on-line. A friend is on the Certification committee at PPA.

D._Craig_Flory
06-04-2007, 02:51 PM
Hi Deb;

I sent an e-mail to my friend who is on the Certification Committee as well as to David Mithofer at PPA about a future possiblity of being able to upload the images over the net. I'll post anything I find out.

Karen_Linsley
06-04-2007, 03:40 PM
do we now have the option to upload our images? I did not find that anywhere on the cpp site.

Hi Deb; I don't know that putting the images on the web is for regular submissions. I submitted my DVD for the May judging, and got a nice rejection letter back :( which went on to say that if I wanted a second chance I could take advantage of a new program and upload my submissions to the web for another review. The deadline for that was June 1, which gave me maybe two weeks to get those images up. I do not know if they plan to make this another way to sumbit. I suspect that if my images do not pass this second review, then I will have to put together another DVD for the August judging.

Jane_Lydick_Staid
06-06-2007, 06:38 PM
How often are the image judgings done?

Karen_Linsley
06-07-2007, 03:50 AM
According to the web site last time I checked it's quarterly. The next official judging isn't till August. I think this online thing is new, and for folks who did not pass. The letter they sent me said it was new, and was an opportunity to resubmit my images for a second look. It also said that I would be able to get a more thorough critique if I submitted them online. I will let you guys know what happens and keep you posted.

Deb_Wat
06-07-2007, 06:34 AM
Thanks Karen. I will be resubmitting my images in August and was hoping to do it online.

Karen_Linsley
06-07-2007, 02:07 PM
Hey Deb! We're practically neighbors! How exciting!

Al_Hopper
06-08-2007, 08:32 PM
PPA’s Certification Committee took a look at an online judging system at a meeting several weeks ago. This Monday a group of judges will be reviewing some submissions on line to both test the system and so that candidates can get critiques of their work.

We anticipate that on line submission will become the preferred means to submitting images for a certification image review; it is quick, less expensive and avoids problems with DVDs that don’t open correctly or looking at the quality of the printing instead of the image. Candidates will also be able to get a critique if their submission is not accepted. There will be an option for submitting prints, possibly at one specific image review.

The committee is working hard at making the process easier, less expensive for members to participate and to get members good feedback. You will be seeing more specifics soon.

Al Hopper, PPA

Karen_Linsley
06-09-2007, 04:36 AM
Thank you Al!

Mark_Levesque
06-09-2007, 04:43 AM
That's great news, Al. That would definitely be my preferred method of submitting, and since I have to submit for the August review, it would be really great if I could do so over the web. I sure hope you guys are ready to support this soon!

Deb_Wat
06-09-2007, 05:39 PM
I know Karen! You should come stay with me and come to our local meeting sometime.

Deb_Wat
06-09-2007, 05:41 PM
You will be seeing more specifics soon.

Al Hopper, PPA


Any idea if it will be ready for the August review date?

Karen_Linsley
06-10-2007, 05:41 AM
Hey Deb, are you talking about SAcramento Valley PPA? I'm going to the meeting on the 20th.

Karen_Linsley
06-23-2007, 02:36 PM
update; well, the certification committee has seen fit to fail my images....the letter said they had too much flash and were muddy and lacked contrast! I'm not sure how that can happen at the same time but whatever. I'm going to plan B, stay tuned for requests for critique in the print comp section.

Meanwhile the nice rejection letter they sent me did mention that for the August judging one can submit via the online process. Give ppa a call and get a password and logon and you are good to go.

Cheri_MacCallum
06-23-2007, 03:11 PM
Sorry for the bad news! I know it's frustrating!!! My guess is (since I've judged certification), is that the all the comments are an overview of the problems with the images, not necessarily all problems mentioned with one image. Am I making sense?

D._Craig_Flory
06-23-2007, 04:09 PM
[QUOTE=Cheri MacCallum;84324] since I've judged certification

Hi Cheri;

Karen's biggest gripe is that the images are NOT supposed to be competition quality but rather client quality. As a C.P.P. liaison, I have said for many years they need to be Red Ribbon quality. (76 to 79 scores) On the chart that means "Above Average". I am going to ask a friend of mine who is on the certification committee for a clarification. Since I've been certified since 1986, criteria has changed.

Jackie_Haggerty
06-23-2007, 04:23 PM
Craig-I believe that what you said about red ribbon quality seems true. The technical elements are there, and the maker shows an understanding of those technical elements and the execution of them. They don't have to be merit images.

In the last number of months I have heard one thing over and over again. When you are photographing for a client, why should your standards be any less than what you would be doing when photographing for print competition? As far as the "rules" go, you can break the rules in print competition, but you have to know the rules, what they are, and how to execute them well to know how to break them effectively without it being interpreted as an error.

As Jim Lersch says in his program- shoot for 101- for your client! Why even consider anything less? It will only make you a better photographer.

Mark_Levesque
06-23-2007, 04:30 PM
Well, Karen, I think posting that was brave. I'm sure it wasn't easy. It's so much more fun to post good news than not so good news. Keep at it.

Cheri_MacCallum
06-23-2007, 06:46 PM
Karen's biggest gripe is that the images are NOT supposed to be competition quality but rather client quality.

Craig, the line below is what I was responding to!!



the letter said they had too much flash and were muddy and lacked contrast! I'm not sure how that can happen at the same time but whatever.

And yes your are correct about the "scoring", unless they've changed it in the last few months!