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D._Craig_Flory
01-16-2007, 08:18 PM
I was just told, this afternoon, that what I heard a rumor of back in October has been passed. Photographers going for Master of Photography no longer have to first get certified. I think it's a travesty and a big mistake. I apprenticed, with a Master, back in the early 70's. He got his degree in 1965 and by 1970 was no longer competing. His work had stagnated and no new ideas or styles were being added. I feel that is the result we can look for now ... photographers getting the degree and stagnating. With the C.P.P. requirement, chances are they would keep that up and keep active in competition.

So, to all the PPA Council Members I say Big Mistake !!!

Stan_Lawrence
01-17-2007, 03:19 AM
"So, to all the PPA Council Members I say Big Mistake !!!"

D. Craig, I respectfully disagree. Connecting the CPP to the Masters never made sense to me. If someone wants to "keep current", that's their choice. They need to keep current because they want to, not by forcing them with certification. It's a move in the right direction, IMHO.....:cool:

Auralee_Dallas
01-17-2007, 04:09 AM
What are the other reasons for keeping the two connected, other than motivation to keep current which I'm not sure I understand the connection there?

Michael_Gan
01-17-2007, 04:49 AM
The Masters and certification are two entirely separate things. One is a marketing vehicle for your business and the other is of personal acheivement. Certitfication is now an independent organization and is only tied to PPA as part of the PPA umbrella. Also, it was thought, at the time that in order to get certification off the ground, tying it to the master degree would help the program along.

Now, certification is so strong, it is an entitity all its own, so council felt it was time to let the baby go fly from the nest. However, it has been left open ended to still have an exam for techincal competance to complete the degree.

We have been suffering from a shortage of Masters in recent years, and, in my opinion, we need to restrengthen the Masters program in order to improve the quality of work amonst all professionals.

This was passed yesterday.

Michael

David_A._Lottes
01-17-2007, 10:57 AM
What are the other reasons for keeping the two connected, other than motivation to keep current which I'm not sure I understand the connection there?

Hi Auralee
Certified Professional Photographers must Re-Certify every five years. In order to pass the re-certification one must provide a list of classes that they have attended. If one has not attended enough classes then they must also re-submit a portfolio of twenty images done for clients over the previous two years from their re-certification date. Or re-take the exam. It's all outlined more clearly in the certification section of the PPA web site. In my case I had to submit prints because I only had 13 of the 20 educational (credits) needed to avoid re-submission. That was in 2003. I'm up for review again in 2008. So the idea is by requiring a certified to attend classes and/or show the certification council their recent client work or retake the exam it forces certifieds to stay current. Print merits don't count towards certification because as Michael said it's a whole different ball of wax. But even though the print merits themselves don't count towards certification the images would make perfect submissions as long as it is client work. When I re-submitted in 2003 they wanted to know when, who and what the job was for each image. The submissions aren't judged like print comp, the twenty prints are looked at as a body of work not individually and the score doesn't have to be 80 or above on each individual print. Some of this may be off here and there. For the best explaination check the web site.

Auralee_Dallas
01-17-2007, 03:37 PM
David, I pretty much understand all the criteria around certification. I just didn't understand why PPA felt that you needed to be first certified before you could become a master. Apparently at one time you did not, then you did, and now again you do not.
I think it's ok for them to be separate, but I'm sure there is a variety of opinions and valid reasons for both.

David_A._Lottes
01-17-2007, 03:51 PM
Sorry Auralee
I don't know why it keeps swinging back and forth. Seems to always catch me going the other direction what ever the reasons may be. I started pursuing my Masters before I had ever heard of Certification. Then the requirements changed so I became Certified. Now it's back to where it was but with my luck if I ever get the 13 print merits I need it sounds like I'll need to pass another exam to get my Masters. I'm sure there are several of us in the same boat.....It's that whole generation X thing. Our timing has been off since birth. If it doesn't kill you it makes you stronger.:cool:

D._Craig_Flory
01-17-2007, 04:05 PM
Hi group;

Jack told me he will be back as of Thursday and will post a comment on this. I'm anxious to see what he says since he takes over as PPA prez as of March.

Holly_Howe
01-18-2007, 05:06 PM
photographers getting the degree and stagnating. With the C.P.P. requirement, chances are they would keep that up and keep active in competition.



D. Craig - with all respect that's untrue. There are so many levels above Master's to keep a photographer challenged. CPP level of accdeptance for prints is below that of a merit image. So saying that a person who has earned a degree with a min. 13 merit level images would continue to be motivated by having to resubmit images every 5 years - that are not required to be merit level - doesn't make sense to me. Also - once you achieved master's degree - you DID NOT have to keep the certification designation to keep the degree. I am an example of that. There has been in the past a large percentage of people who have done as I did - just let it run out. So how is being certified going to keep the master's motivated?

If your big concern is keeping Master's motivated then you should be comforted with the Imaging Excellance Awards ( 13 loan images) and the Photographer of the Year Awards. Those two programs offer continuing levels of achievement for current Master's.

Micheal mentioned the possibility of an exam for Master's degree. Keith asked me to clarify his comment in case anyone misunderstood. As it was passed in council there currently is NO exam requirment. It would take another vote by council next year to change the bylaws again and add an exam requirment.

Holly

Don_Chick
01-18-2007, 05:55 PM
I think it's a travesty and a big mistake.


I tried to get this discussion going last fall before the vote.. couldn't get anybody too excited about it then...

I don't care that one program is for marketing one is for peer recognition. My point is that someone calling themselves a "master" can now become one without even knowing what the inverse square law is/was.

But why try to beat that dead horse any deaderer, just accept that those in the majority voted it this way.

D._Craig_Flory
01-18-2007, 06:12 PM
I tried to get this discussion going last fall before the vote.. couldn't get anybody too excited about it then...

I don't care that one program is for marketing one is for peer recognition. My point is that someone calling themselves a "master" can now become one without even knowing what the inverse square law is/was.

But why try to beat that dead horse any deaderer, just accept that those in the majority voted it this way.

At our Pa. February meeting, you can bet our state Certified group will be talking about this !

David_A._Lottes
01-18-2007, 06:17 PM
someone calling themselves a "master" can now become one without even knowing what the inverse square law is/was.
.

Hey as long as their images have impact what difference does it make?

(RUNNING FOR COVER FROM THE BOO HISSING AND THE ROTTEN TOMATOES):D

I promise I'm over this, I just couldn't resist. hehehe

Don_Chick
01-18-2007, 08:44 PM
Hey as long as their images have impact what difference does it make? :D :D

David,

You say they have impact, what do you mean by that? Is it the lighting, composition or some other factor contributing to the impact? :D :D
You didn't mention what other element contributed to the overall impact!

David_A._Lottes
01-18-2007, 08:54 PM
Now Don
I'm trying to be a good sport. You know Sunshine lollipops daydreams all that stuff. Besides, If they don't care about certification they won't care about what gives them impact! OH shoot there I go again....Bad David, Bad David!!!

OK really I'm done now. I'm going to run away before you taunt me a second time.:p

Dave_Cisco
01-18-2007, 10:14 PM
I don't care that one program is for marketing one is for peer recognition. My point is that someone calling themselves a "master" can now become one without even knowing what the inverse square law is/was.



With all due respect, and as someone with a Masters in Electrical Engineering and one who also holds the degree of Master Photographer, I don't think one has to know details of both to excel in one. Believe me, if someone gets their Mr. Photog, they know all they need to know about light.:D

Jeff_Dachowski
01-19-2007, 02:05 AM
Now, certification is so strong, it is an entitity all its own, Michael
Michael,
It was a pleasure meeting you this week. Did it ever occur to anyone that the success of the cpp was based on the desire to achieve Masters? I do not see a bit of marekting to it at all. I do see that if you were an electrician you would need an electricians license before you got your Masters Electrician license. If I achieve my masters do you think I would still go through the trouble to maintain a cp, or would I be one of those that has to maintain both since I got my cpp during the time when it was required?



We have been suffering from a shortage of Masters in recent years, and, in my opinion, we need to restrengthen the Masters program in order to improve the quality of work amonst all professionals.
Michael
If you ( the council) are worried about strengthing the program, what are the Masters afraid about taken a simple test? Can they pass it or not? I would be willing to think Yes, nearly everytime.
" a shortage of masters in recent years"
It depends where you look. Have you ever looked at the Master ratio in Nebraska? it is pretty high. The quality of a merit print has been raised, and it is harder to achieve a meritable image than it was before. The bar keeps rising. This also might be another reason for a decline in Masters. Fuji just announced that Masterpiece awards need to score 85 or higher. Another bellweather that the bar just keeps rising. Maybe a merit print will be an 85 soon? My fear is that those you have it willl think it is a good idea since they have achieved it. You know, close the door now that I am in? Not trying to sound grumpy here, just remember where this leads to.....two conventions, one for the Masters, and one for all the nonmasters.


Jeff

Jack_Reznicki
01-19-2007, 02:51 AM
I really don't have the time this needs. Got in late yesterday from San Antonio and off to California for the Epson Print Academy tomorrow, so this will be quick for now.

First, this went to Council with support and statements from the Board of Directors, PEC, and the Certification Committee.
It had great support in Council, once the facts came out.
People like Helen Yancy and Doug Box (and others I can't remember) spoke for it.
Craig, I'd suggest asking your Councilor to get a copy of what was handed out. This was not done quickly or lightly. This is not an issue that can be looked at the surface. You do need to dig into it.

Doug Box had the best line for this- As his daddy told him, when the horse dies....get off.
This horse is dead and will not whiney again.

Many reasons for passing as it did. How it was- Certification is a consumer program, not a peer-to-peer program. You can drop certification after you get your Masters and retain your Masters. Tying the two together is problematic for NOCA and devalues Certification because it's an association designation.

Anyone can call themselves a "Master Photographer" and PPA can't do anything. The Masters and CPP are PPA designations. "Certified Photographer" is actually a new program and a new designation.

We've separated Certification into it's own arm's length group, as suggested by NOCA, the association that advises organizations to get "certification" like accountants, dentists, mechanics, etc.

Separated, we now own "Certified Photographer" via AVA. While we can't do anything about "Master Photographer" wording, we now sure can with certification.

We can make any requirements for becoming a Master, including a test. But tying it to the Masters as it is, undercuts and devalues the Certification program.

There is more issues, many more. Thee are the ones I remember. Basically this strengthens Certification to a very valuable program. We now own, via AVA and by trademark, "Certified Photographer" "Certified Wedding Photographer" "Certified Portrait Photographer" etc, etc.
No other group or association can use that designation. If we keep it PPA's Certification within PPA, any other association could "certify" their photographer members. No more.

We understand it's an emotional issue for some photographers, but those looking past the emotions have supported this.

Also, please remember, contrary to what people say about knowing the "inverse square" law, I know many "Master Photographers" like my friends Jay Maisel and Joyce Tenneson, that probably could not pass a certification test. Can you tell me that means they, two of the most respected photographers in history, are not "Master" photographers?

The programs need to be apart for many reasons and on many levels.

David_A._Lottes
01-19-2007, 10:57 AM
Believe me, if someone gets their Mr. Photog, they know all they need to know about light.:D

Hi Dave
Of course your right, I know plenty of older Masters from the pre-requirement days who couldn't pass the exam and it hasn't hurt them one bit. I appreciate your paitence with me as I fumble my way to greatness. Now I notice you are also a CPP. So looking at this from a purely selfish standpoint it's a win - win for you and me if I ever earn my Masters. The dropping of the requirement will no doubt mean a lower number of certifieds and make guys like you and hopefully me some day look even more qualified in an already crowded market. I'm not sure if this is the best thing since sliced bread or not but it can work to my advantage, so hey...More power to it!:D

Derek_Alvarez
01-19-2007, 12:27 PM
Well the CPP never made sense to me being attach to the masters

It seemed a little late in the game then,
IMHO it should be the prerequisite for being a PPA member.

The CPP does not make you a better Photographer just a good tester!
Knowledge and Application are world apart!:cool:

D._Craig_Flory
01-19-2007, 12:51 PM
Hi Jack;

Many thanks Jack. That's why I sent you a private message, asking you to look at this thread. Your answer satisfies me and I hope it does everyone else as well.

Stan_Lawrence
01-19-2007, 12:54 PM
"Did it ever occur to anyone that the success of the cpp was based on the desire to achieve Masters?"

Not exactly, Jeff. Many of us felt it was so weak in the beginning it had to be tied to something to get it going. Anyone that really believes certification = competence really isn't looking at the reality of it. Does a masters = competence? Not really, just the ability to create merit prints. Personally I'd rather create merit prints.... As Derek said, if it was required for membership in ppa it might make sense. For some of us the cpp would be a detriment, although I'm sure the cpp works for some....making them separate gives choice. That's a good thing....:cool:

Jane_Lydick_Staid
01-19-2007, 02:56 PM
I'm happy that the certification requirement has been dropped. I completely agree with Jeff that the certification program has only succeeded because of that requirement. (Jeff already knows how I feel about that.) I only became certified because it became a requirement the year I finished my 13th print merit. There were a half dozen of us locally in the same boat and we started a study group in order to pass. Alot of us were terrified at the thought of such a comprehensive exam. I was lucky, I passed the first time.

It is one thing to pass the test, its another to be able to use that knowledge in your artistry. There are plenty of gearheads who know more about photography than I do but couldnt shoot their way out of a paper bag. Learning what the Scheimpflug principle is or that Eadweard Muybridge invented the zoopraxiscope did not enhance my ability to shoot a wedding.

I'm not saying that becoming certified isnt important, its a hard test to pass and those who should do should be proud.

Joe_Galioto
01-19-2007, 03:13 PM
i was one who drop cpp.

a little history: i became certified in the mid 80s, followed by craftsman & master degrees. after several years of paying those additional cpp fees-i stoped returning the recertification forms. as a master photog. i found no value in being certified. i attend conventions and worlshops thoughout the year, so meeting the reguirements is not a consern
imho a degree of master is a much higher level accomplishment then cpp. it's like belonging to the cubscout when your an eagle scout. study the recomded books & submit average prints and we all can acheive cpp. it don't make you a good speller-do it.
please don't take this as an insult, if i were new in photography i would seek to by certified as a stepping stone. knowlege is power!

respectfully submitted
joe, m.photog., cr., dfp

David_A._Lottes
01-19-2007, 03:19 PM
Hi Joe
I just wanted to say thanks for posting your creds! I've known about your Master status for a while but I don't think many others did. Don't be surprised if you become a BMOC now that everyone knows how accomplished you are. Your far to modest Joe. Thanks for letting the cat out of the bag!

Joe_Galioto
01-19-2007, 03:26 PM
david,

i'm sure it was a mistake!

j

by the way - i took the cpp test 3 times before i passed, a bit embarrassed when at a nj council meeting update on certfication it was anounced; "and joe will being taking the ccp exame for the 3rd time" thanks susan

David_A._Lottes
01-19-2007, 03:32 PM
david,

i'm sure it was a mistake!

j

So remember,

Joe walks softly and carries a big stick.:cool:

D._Craig_Flory
01-19-2007, 03:39 PM
Hi Joe;

I'm glad it's out of the bag about your credentials. Since I'm in Pa., I know there are lots of fine Masters in your state. One is even a past prez of PPA.

Joe_Galioto
01-19-2007, 04:14 PM
d, craig,

you must be referring to john m. of course.

joe

Jane_Lydick_Staid
01-19-2007, 04:22 PM
I feel bad for the newly certified members who worked hard to pass. I know a few from my state. I would be pretty upset after having gone through the expense and time required only to find that I didnt need to do so. Can they get a refund?

It will be interesting to see how many will become certified now.

D._Craig_Flory
01-19-2007, 04:50 PM
d, craig,

you must be referring to john m. of course.

joe

Yes, the one and only John Miele ! We had him as a speaker, here in Pa., years ago and now see him 4 times a year in our trade show and mini trade shows.

D._Craig_Flory
01-19-2007, 04:58 PM
I feel bad for the newly certified members who worked hard to pass. I know a few from my state. I would be pretty upset after having gone through the expense and time required only to find that I didnt need to do so. Can they get a refund?

It will be interesting to see how many will become certified now.

Hi Jane;

Here in Pennsylvania, we have trophies and awards for those that are certified, and belong to our state C.P.P. group. We also have extra speakers every year for our certified members. And, we have a medalion we all work towards ... as well as bars that can be added. I am very proud to wear it around my neck. It goes well with my state service award and Craftsman medalion. It takes 25 state print merits, and 25 state service merits, to get our state C.P.P. medalion. Can you tell we have a strong state C.P.P. group ?

Even if photographers start dropping C.P.P. after getting Master, I think it will remain something people strive for ... for client recognition in their area.

Mark_Levesque
01-19-2007, 05:12 PM
I feel bad for the newly certified members who worked hard to pass. I know a few from my state. I would be pretty upset after having gone through the expense and time required only to find that I didnt need to do so. Can they get a refund?
I may be taking the test by myself in April, but take it I will. You make a good point that there's a difference between knowing the answer on a test and applying sound principles in your artistry. But it seems to me that you can't apply sound principles if you don't know and understand them. Interestingly, I've occasionally had problems with my work that I would be able to answer if someone asked me the right question, and yet I remained uncertain as to how to proceed until I stepped back and thought about it. Of course, you don't always have that luxury in the middle of a shoot. So applying learned principles to solve encountered problems is one of my main areas of focus, so to speak.

As for why I'm still planning on being certified, it's for two reasons. First, to achieve a known level of competence. That's for myself. A distant second is for whatever marketing mileage I can get out of it. I think the main thing is to know more, allowing me more arrows in my quiver to use in my work. It sort of enforces a broader level of understanding than I might develop on my own (in a compressed time.) Rather than learning things as I come across them or need to use them, I need to learn them all at the same time. I'm expecting a similar boost in confidence to when I got my engineering degree.

Holly_Howe
01-19-2007, 05:30 PM
It depends where you look. Have you ever looked at the Master ratio in Nebraska? it is pretty high.

Jeff

1 in 5.93 members in NE is a Master. This includes all active, aspiring, retired, and firm (employee) memberships. Lots of Master's in NE!

Holly

Marc_Benjamin
01-19-2007, 06:49 PM
I gotta admit, going into the council meeting I was against abolishing the cpp pre-requisite but quickly got sold after reading the recomendations of the board, PEC and certification groups and hearing Helen Yancy and Ron Nichols speak for it.

It just made sense.