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David_A._Lottes
01-11-2007, 06:52 PM
By request I'd like to see your 79s. Here is mine from the APPI competition of 06. I got my print case back and flipped the prints over to see the scores. My heart sank when I saw the 80 crossed out and a red 79 written below it. I'm over it now but I wish I didn't know that for at least a minute or two it was a merit.:rolleyes:

D.Craig asked me to do this, I think to give folks an idea of what kind of things straddle the fence. Michael and Stephen were kind enough to critic it in the gallery and help me understand it's shortcomings.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m306/Dlottes/andy3i.jpg

Titled Leader of the pack

Jeff_Dachowski
01-11-2007, 07:53 PM
David,
I would love to post all my 79's. The problem is with the bandwidth. THere is not enough room on any server!
Jeff

Jeff_Dachowski
01-11-2007, 07:56 PM
Ok here are two of them. These are cropped images, not the original print shape. Many more might follow. 79 is a popular number at my studio!

D._Craig_Flory
01-11-2007, 07:59 PM
Hi David and others;

Here is a 79 image from 2006 Pa. state competition. It was titled "Aerial Ballet".

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i93/DC47/AerialBallet-1.jpg

Jeff_Dachowski
01-11-2007, 07:59 PM
Oops this one went to 80. Sorry uploaded by mistake. Many more to follow. Shall I continue?

Auralee_Dallas
01-11-2007, 08:33 PM
:D Here's mine--I actually already have plans for improvement.

David_A._Lottes
01-11-2007, 10:26 PM
Keep 'em coming Jeff! But no more of those nasty 80s please. There's a different thread for those. Actually on second thought anything from 78 to 82would work here. Isn't that the automatic thumbs up, thumbs down range?

Michael_Gan
01-11-2007, 11:07 PM
:D Here's mine--I actually already have plans for improvement.
Hi Auralee, I was the one who got picked for the critique on this image. Look for it when your dvd arrives. Michael

Auralee_Dallas
01-11-2007, 11:31 PM
Hey Michael--that's pretty funny,
It actually got the exact same score as it did at PPSV and I know what they said, so I'll be looking forward to what you had to say. I bet it's the exact same things.

Did they do the DVD the same way they did last year so you got to see the critiques of the others who agreed to be critiqued?

Michael_Gan
01-11-2007, 11:46 PM
Hey Michael--that's pretty funny,
It actually got the exact same score as it did at PPSV and I know what they said, so I'll be looking forward to what you had to say. I bet it's the exact same things.

Did they do the DVD the same way they did last year so you got to see the critiques of the others who agreed to be critiqued?As far as I know, it will be the same.

Michael

David_M_Deutsch
01-12-2007, 12:59 AM
. Actually on second thought anything from 78 to 82would work here. Isn't that the automatic thumbs up, thumbs down range?

Yes David. That's the "danger zone".
Anything between a 78 and 81 comes back for review by the judges just to make sure they didn't miss it the first time.

It really is a very fair way to judge, but when you get 80 or 81 right out of the chute.... it's not always going to stay that way.

As they say... "It aint over till the fat lady sings" ...or the judges give it a thumbs up:cool:

DMD

DianeDavis
01-12-2007, 01:50 AM
Is it possible to share what didn't work to put the images at 80?

Michael_Gan
01-12-2007, 03:59 AM
Auralee's image made 80 in the first round and got moved to 79 (sorry Auralee). The biggest problem was the pelican was not doged properly, so that there was an uneven light area behind the bird. also the rock line had the same problem.

Michael

Auralee_Dallas
01-12-2007, 04:16 AM
Since we are talking about it, I will add feedback I got on the local level. Same comment about the pelican, plus they thought the sun was too close to the top, and there is a light area on the water on the left hand side (draws eye away). it was suggested to start over with the original image and fix those things. The problem on the rocks I don't know how to fix because it's actually backlight on the rocks from the setting sun.
And you don't have to apologize--I've been challenged down before and also challenged up.

Dave_Cisco
01-12-2007, 04:35 AM
I gave a program to my local Metroplex PPA group a few years ago on 78s&79s. I had to have help carrying two 4" thick cases into the building.:D

DianeDavis
01-12-2007, 04:36 AM
Now you guys are just scaring me.

Dave_Cisco
01-12-2007, 04:41 AM
Now you guys are just scaring me.

Nothing to fear but fear itself.:D ..it's a great character-builder....I wasn't nearly as big of a character before I started competing.

Michael_Gan
01-12-2007, 01:14 PM
I gave a program to my local Metroplex PPA group a few years ago on 78s&79s. I had to have help carrying two 4" thick cases into the building.:DLOL, I remember saying that if they ever change the criteria to 79, I'd kill them....I would have got my Masters in my first four years of business.

Michael

D._Craig_Flory
01-12-2007, 01:59 PM
I gave a program to my local Metroplex PPA group a few years ago on 78s&79s. I had to have help carrying two 4" thick cases into the building.:D

Hi Dave;

It is good for young photographers to see that photographers of your caliber have not just received 80's. The dreaded 78's & 79's can happen for anyone. In our state assn. judging, I've seen images get a high score that didn't merit at PPA. On the reverse, I've seen images that were at PPA 1st. The makers submitted identical prints of images that went Loan Collection and they got scores in the 70's ! You never know. At least at PPA there are more panels. For those that don't know .... at national, if an image doesn't get a merit score, a judge can ask to have it sent to another panel. If I remember correctly, there are either 4 or 5 sets of judges. Again for those that may not know ... each panel of judges has 5 giving scores. A 6th judge is observing but not scoring. That's for two reasons: when a judge takes a break, that 6th judge takes their place and is already in the flow of things. The other reason is if a judge recognizes an image and the maker or even thinks they know ... the 6th judge scores the image.

There are very few scores of 100 ... but there are a lot of 78's and 79's. I suggest that we all take Dave's admission, about all of his in that range, as a push to keep trying.

David_M_Deutsch
01-12-2007, 06:04 PM
A great way to start recognizing the difference between the 78-79 scores and the 80 and higher scores is to visit the PPA print exhibit at the convention.

Then visit the Loan collection and ASP Loan collection and you'll start to recognize why these images scored 80 and usually much higher.

Whenever you can ask for an opion on your print.... Most Masters and non Masters alike are more than willing to offer an opinion on what may help to boost your score.

If at all possible, buy the PPA Loan Collection Book. It's a great source for inspiration. I try to buy the books at every convention.

D._Craig_Flory
01-12-2007, 07:08 PM
Hi group;

Here is an image that got a 78 in Pennsylvania in the 2006 annual print competition. It was titled "Street Rod Fantasy".

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i93/DC47/StreetRodDreams.jpg

Joe_Galioto
01-13-2007, 12:14 AM
In the imortal words of the late Mort Sobin of NJ.

"Geting a 79 is like kissing your sister"

probally a popular passtime in some parts of the country - you know who you are.

Joe

Dave_Cisco
01-13-2007, 01:08 AM
This thread is really something...I could talk about it for hours. :) Only two other things in my life come close to the anxiety that sitting through a judging can generate....one was getting my Masters of Electrical Engineering in 1965, and the other was getting married.:D I feel I got at least a 90 in both.:D

Scoring is supposed to start at 100 and points are to be taken off for things that don't meet muster. I hope I don't get my membership cancelled for this, but I really don't think it works that way....and probably for good reason. I have judged, but I'm not qualified for affiliated competitions. What I experienced, and observed watching many other judges, is that the total process of scoring a print general takes less than 10 seconds....and that's time enough for soul-searching. Within 5 seconds, certianly 10, a judge will get an impression as to whether the print is under, (at) or over 80....That is why Impact is so crucial. then it's just a matter of deciding by how much. Keep in mind that a 79 can be the result of 4 judges scoring 80 and one scoring 78.

D._Craig_Flory
01-13-2007, 01:26 AM
Hi Dave;

That's also why certain elements are so important. If a judge really likes an image he / or she can challenge the score . Then, they can defend why they though the image deserved a better score. If an image already was scored, they can ask for it to be brought back up again. So it pays to enter images with lots of impact and pizazz.

Holly_Howe
01-13-2007, 01:45 AM
. Keep in mind that a 79 can be the result of 4 judges scoring 80 and one scoring 78.

And that's why they have thumbs up/down. Because 4 thumbs up and one thumb down will move the print to an 80.


Holly

Dave_Cisco
01-13-2007, 01:56 AM
And that's why they have thumbs up/down. Because 4 thumbs up and one thumb down will move the print to an 80.


Holly

..and since TU-TD is the last and most important scoring, it should be noted that "the system" really is trying to give each competitor the best possible opportunity to cross the magic threshold.:)

Mark_Levesque
01-13-2007, 02:48 AM
one was getting my Masters of Electrical Engineering in 1965... Keep in mind that a 79 can be the result of 4 judges scoring 80 and one scoring 78.
Er, not exactly. 4x80 + 78 = 398. /4 = 79.6, which rounds up. ;) ;) (One engineer to another.)

Keith_A_Howe
01-13-2007, 03:01 AM
Scoring is supposed to start at 100 and points are to be taken off for things that don't meet muster. I hope I don't get my membership cancelled for this, but I really don't think it works that way....and probably for good reason.

Dave, The system you mention is out dated and has been changed several years ago. In fact during the judges charge before an affiliated judging, the judges are shown images from the current general collection and then images from the current loan collection. The judges are instructed to the following: We as jurrors are to analyze the image in front of us and not what it could be. Determine what category the image belongs in, unacceptable 69 & below, below average 70-73, average 74-75, above average 76-79, deserving of merit 80-84, excellant 85-89, superior 90-94, exceptional 95-100. Once we determine the category (like deserving of merit) we then decide is just barely in the category - 80, easily in the catagory - 82 or 83, or the top of the category and if so, should it be the bottom on the next catagory -84 or 85. Jurors are instructed to not use comments like "if you start at 100 and take points for....." This in NOT the way the system is now.
Yes we score in 10-20 seconds usually. I understand that may seem fast to you. Think about when you are photographing a wedding. You react quickly, almost instinctively because you have done it so many times, you don't need to slowly analize every aspect. It's the same thing with a juror - once they have affiliate status. To get that designation jurors have worked at analyzing images, analyzing post processing, composition etc etc. They have practiced the judging process and had thier skills rated before being accepted as an affiliated juror. To receive the affilate juror status they must have attended the week long class, judged at least 3 non affilaite competitions and receive 5 letters of recomendation (if memory serves) from affilaite jurors whop have judged with them. Then their application is reviewed by PEC. having the necessary numbers does not guareentee acceptance. Once we are accepted each time we judge an affilated comp., we are scored on our skills again by the Jury Chairman. The jury chariman's skill as a JC are also scored by the jurors. This is why we can do this quickly. We have a ton of experience. We are required to take a refresher course every three years and merit at least one print every two years. This is done to make sure judges stay fresh and up to date and basically - walk the walk.
Back to the process. Images are judged by a panel of 5 with an alternate. This way the images are an average of the 5 scores and not just one opinion. Now for the example of 4 80's and one 78. The total of the scores is 398, divided by 5 jurors equals 79.6 which is an 80. (4 -80's and a 77 would average 79.4 and not merit) Now for the thumbs down and up, First is the 80's to see if the majority of thumbs (4 out of 6 or what ever the majority is depending on number of judges present) takes them down to 79 or stays the same. Images can be challenged during this time as well. If an image goes down to 79, it is mixed into the piles of 78-79's and brough back AGAIN during thumbs up. A majority of thumbs up will be needed to bring an image up to 80. Thumbs process is done to give jurrors a chance to correct any slight errors at the critical merit area. The thumbs down/up is ALWAYS done in that order to give each image every possible opportunity to get the merit. So if on the back of a print it says 80 crossed out then 79 you know the judges looked at your print several times. It is possible that it was not lowered during thumbs but was challenged during the first time through.

This is a very quick explanation of a process we study for a week and then practise practise practise. I hope it may help some of you understand the whole process better. If you are unsure of something please ask. It's better than accidently spreading misunderstandings.

Keith

TerryMichael
01-13-2007, 03:15 AM
It was my first submission -

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f160/bingobongo654/PTM/lastdance.jpg

TerryMichael
01-13-2007, 03:17 AM
This one was a 78 -

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f160/bingobongo654/PTM/IMG_0554.jpg

TerryMichael
01-13-2007, 03:19 AM
And my last one - an 80

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f160/bingobongo654/PTM/AttheReady.jpg

Hope you don't mind the triple posting - just they were all right there and why not?

Heidi_Theriault
01-13-2007, 03:35 AM
Here is one of my 79's - titled "Wham!" with very selective focus on the snow ball. The judges challenged but I don't remember what was said now.

http://www.heiditheriault.com/images/ourppa/cp79.jpg

Heidi_Theriault
01-13-2007, 03:38 AM
Here's another ... titled "Ethin" - also challenged and the judges didn't like that the high angle on a child made him look like a frog ... :(

http://www.heiditheriault.com/images/ourppa/cp792.jpg

Holly_Howe
01-13-2007, 05:09 AM
Heidi - "Ethin" is an example of what I was trying to say in an earlier post. While some judges may have not cared for the high camera angle, that was probably not the only reason this print did not merit. It might have been the only thing mentioned and if that was enough to keep it out of merit - then why go any further. So here is what I would change. First - wrong title - should have been something like "Pfffffffffft". It's a funny cute print - give it a fun title to show the frog like pose was intentional - not a mistake. Keith said he would have called it "The Frog Prince". Next - it's too tight of crop. Little ones need plenty of room around them so they look little. The blue vest is distracting but not enough on it's own to keep it out of the merit . Lastly - he is broad lit and the catchlight is incorrectly positioned. I think it might have overcome the lighting and still merited if you changed the title, left more space around him and enhanced his eyes to make them pop.

The judges may only mention one thing but prints are rarely kept from meriting for just one single reason, at least in my experience. Thank you for letting me use your print to make a point. By the way - I really like it and would be pleased to have it as a sample in my studio.

Holly

Heidi_Theriault
01-13-2007, 06:11 PM
Holly,
Thanks for all the comments. You make very good points. Actually, this was my very first client and very first competition entry. It was purely natural light. I've learned a lot more about lighting since then and would have done a lot of things different.

Good point about leaving space around them so they appear little. I hadn't thought of that.

D._Craig_Flory
01-13-2007, 06:54 PM
Hi Heidi;

To follow up what Holly said ... there is an old adage: "Kids, Puppies, and Kittens need room to grow". If done too close the perspective is lost. If done at a distance, their tiny stature is properly portrayed.