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Bill_Hitz
09-26-2006, 11:21 PM
Where can I find general guidelines on raw print competition? Or can someone give me a list of usual criteria?

Thanks!

Lori_Clapp
09-27-2006, 03:23 AM
I never knew there was a Hollywood Florida!
No, sorry, can't help you with your question. I'm surprised no one has answered you - I think maybe I'm the only one on line tonight. No one is commenting much on the threads.

Keith_A_Howe
09-27-2006, 04:13 AM
Where can I find general guidelines on raw print competition? Or can someone give me a list of usual criteria?

Thanks!
Bill PPofN has a folio competition that orginally was a raw print competition (back in the days of film) where it was 8 previews from one session or event. They had to be unretouched, unsprayed, undustspotted .... the exception was if the neg was previously retouched and the removal of the retouching would risk damage to the neg. and you had sold the orginal preview then you could reorder a preview from the retouched neg. The folios had to be standard off the shelf folios - you could not add or change the folio. The intent was to see the photographers work not the artist. People complained in the past few years that thier creativity was being stiffled by not allowing ps or artwork on the images and presentation. So it evolved to include a open class catagorie for these people. Then others complained that the top scoring folios were always open class and that it was not fair to be set against them for the awards. Now it is mostly the ps images entered and the old rules have gone away. The ordinal intent was good but if you don't generate enough people entering to justify the $'s spent then the association needed to offer what the people wanted. I can see if I can get a set of last years rules to post here. We have our folio comp in Jan.
Keith

Marc_Benjamin
09-27-2006, 04:17 AM
Hey Bill,

What do you mean by Raw? Like straight from the card work? or people that compete using raw files on capture (being funny here) and never JPEG?.

I am assuming Raw as in straight from the card and quite possibly cropping would be the only PS change. I have thought about this many times this month since all that wins at my local nowadays are heavily paintered work. I still merrit but I have not won print of the month this year yet. I go like, where's the picture and like a straight print can't win anymore.

My sentiments aside, I think the purpose of the PPA international print competition is to promote Professional work and not amature/county faire type stuff. As in, we would not sell a client images that were not cropped, printed and enhanced to it's best.

I hope this helps and please let me know if you end up finding a "raw" or straight from capture competition.

Jack_Reznicki
09-27-2006, 01:53 PM
My sentiments aside, I think the purpose of the PPA international print competition is to promote Professional work and not amature/county faire type stuff. As in, we would not sell a client images that were not cropped, printed and enhanced to it's best.


Marc,

As an aside, as a commercial photographer shooting chrome film for many years, a majority of work was shot and lit and styled, because there was no retouching budget.
I know it may not be what you meant to say, but a good photo doesn't have to be "worked" on in post to produce a professional looking image.
Of course, I never met a photo that couldn't be "improived" either in the darkroom or in Photoshop. But I show hundreds in my shows tthat are "straight" out of the camera.
Give a camera to someone like Jay Maisel and you can get a "master" photo, with no cropping ot enhancing. Just a straight photo. And many of his images are with a plain vanilla 50mm lens.

Actually a "raw" competition would be interesting. Tonal adjustments only. If that.

Holly_Howe
09-27-2006, 02:04 PM
[QUOTE=Jack Reznicki]Marc,

a good photo doesn't have to be "worked" on in post to produce a professional looking image.

Give a camera to someone like Jay Maisel and you can get a "master" photo, with no cropping ot enhancing. Just a straight photo. And many of his images are with a plain vanilla 50mm lens.

QUOTE]

Amen!

Holly & Keith Howe

KirkDarling
09-27-2006, 03:54 PM
Marc,

As an aside, as a commercial photographer shooting chrome film for many years, a majority of work was shot and lit and styled, because there was no retouching budget.

Hmm. So how about an "Iron Shooter" competition. Take a top-level, big-city pro and some young upstart pros, give them the same subject and concept, and see what they can do with it in 30 mnutes. Judge their images on the spot, right of the camera and see which of the young Turks can top the old pro.

Mark_Levesque
09-27-2006, 04:26 PM
Who's gonna play the rich guy that bites the roll of film in the intro?

KirkDarling
09-27-2006, 06:01 PM
Who's gonna play the rich guy that bites the roll of film in the intro?

I'm thinking it should be the current PPA pres.

Holly_Howe
09-27-2006, 06:05 PM
In case you guys have trouble finding film for Jack to bite, I do still have about 20 rolls in the freezer!

Holly

Jack_Reznicki
09-27-2006, 09:21 PM
I'm thinking it should be the current PPA pres.

Ummm, FYI, the "current" President is Michael Taylor. I'm "President-in-waiting", officially "President-Elect" whch is a vice-presidental office.
My term as president starts March 1st, 2007.

KirkDarling
09-28-2006, 12:32 AM
Ummm, FYI, the "current" President is Michael Taylor. I'm "President-in-waiting", officially "President-Elect" whch is a vice-presidental office.
My term as president starts March 1st, 2007.

Then you can be the Iron Shooter: Commercial.

Bill_Hitz
09-28-2006, 03:58 AM
Hey Bill,

What do you mean by Raw? Like straight from the card work? or people that compete using raw files on capture (being funny here) and never JPEG?.

I hope this helps and please let me know if you end up finding a "raw" or straight from capture competition.
Marc, that's what I'm asking.

While I read and appreciate everyone's posts, my question comes about because I had never heard of raw print competition until I joined our local guild this year. At every monthly meeting, members can submit two 8x10s for judging (and I use the word loosely since it is really just voting). At first I suspected that raw prints were for photos without any manipulation, but then I noticed that quite a few entries had extensive post production work on them, including well-known plug-in filters.

This thread was started in the interest of knowing what the official PPA rules might be, but I'm surprised to see that maybe our raw contest is just a local thing.

Perhaps by raw they mean raw competition, not raw prints? :confused:

In any case, it adds an element of fun and benefit to the local meetings and if any of my Guild associates are reading perhaps you can enlighten me and some PPA members who might see this thread.

Keith,
Thanks for your efforts in whatever you can dig up.

I also do like the idea of a competition for totally unmanipulated photography. Tonal adjustments only, as Jack says. But that would be a great category for the 16x20 salon competitions, in addition to monthly 8x10s at the local meetings.

Mark_Levesque
09-28-2006, 10:53 AM
At first I suspected that raw prints were for photos without any manipulation, but then I noticed that quite a few entries had extensive post production work on them, including well-known plug-in filters.
Maybe they mean shooting DSLRs in RAW (as opposed to jpeg)?

Bill_Hitz
09-28-2006, 06:29 PM
Maybe they mean shooting DSLRs in RAW (as opposed to jpeg)?
I have written the local president for a clarification or list of criteria and definition, and I will post again here with the info.

Debra_Warner
09-28-2006, 06:34 PM
Bill PPofN has a folio competition that orginally was a raw print competition (back in the days of film)
Keith

What is this "film" you speak of my good man?! :D *just kidding*... I've read about it in books... *just kidding again*.. no really, what is "film"?

Jack_Reznicki
09-28-2006, 09:37 PM
What is this "film" you speak of my good man?! :D *just kidding*... I've read about it in books... *just kidding again*.. no really, what is "film"?

It's what forms on your teeth when you don't brush.

Bill_Hitz
09-29-2006, 01:25 AM
Local president responded -

Raw Print: These are general rules. 8x10, any subject, digital/film, 2 prints per meeting, that's about it.

I guess I was overcomplicating it.

Marc_Benjamin
09-29-2006, 07:43 AM
Hate to ask this but how do you even prove or ensure that it's a straight from the card image anyway's?

Bill_Hitz
09-29-2006, 01:11 PM
Hate to ask this but how do you even prove or ensure that it's a straight from the card image anyway's?
No need. There is no rule against image manipulation. Apparently what's raw about it is that you can enter anything you want, up to two 8x10s.

I would prefer a new competition where you compete with your prowess in the camera. No manipulation. Instead of "raw" it should be "camera work competition".

Marc_Benjamin
09-29-2006, 03:33 PM
There is no rule against image manipulation. Apparently what's raw about it is that you can enter anything you want, up to two 8x10s.

Hi Bill,

What you guys are doing is called "photographic open" meaning there are no categories such as "portraits or weddings." I think most people here thought about RAW as in straight (not tilted, now I'm really being funny) from the card images.

KirkDarling
09-29-2006, 04:44 PM
No need. There is no rule against image manipulation. Apparently what's raw about it is that you can enter anything you want, up to two 8x10s.

I would prefer a new competition where you compete with your prowess in the camera. No manipulation. Instead of "raw" it should be "camera work competition".

That's why I suggested an Iron Shooter competition. We'd have to see them pull the card from the camera and hand it to the judges.

Marc_Benjamin
09-29-2006, 04:49 PM
That's why I suggested an Iron Shooter competition. We'd have to see them pull the card from the camera and hand it to the judges.

That would be a good evening program for a convention. Let's see

Michael Taylor - Iron shooter (he actually did this in Japan) Portrait
Jack Reznicki - Iron shooter Commercial
Hanson Fong - Iron shooter Wedding

The crazy guy who eats the film could be Russel Preston Brown (btw, I really think he's related to the food network guy)

Now, I think these folks wold really be hard to beat in a "straight from the card" contest! Especially Hanson, he could really kill you on stage. lol

Though I wouldnt be shy to try.

KirkDarling
09-29-2006, 06:10 PM
That would be a good evening program for a convention. Let's see

Michael Taylor - Iron shooter (he actually did this in Japan) Portrait
Jack Reznicki - Iron shooter Commercial
Hanson Fong - Iron shooter Wedding

The crazy guy who eats the film could be Russel Preston Brown (btw, I really think he's related to the food network guy)

Now, I think these folks wold really be hard to beat in a "straight from the card" contest! Especially Hanson, he could really kill you on stage. lol

Though I wouldnt be shy to try.

Hey, I'm liking this idea. If the stage is large enough, it could be split into three sets, one for the Iron Shooter of the evening and two for the challengers. We could even tether their cameras to overhead screens or monitors.

Bill_Hitz
09-30-2006, 02:54 PM
Hi Bill,
What you guys are doing is called "photographic open" meaning there are no categories such as "portraits or weddings." I think most people here thought about RAW as in straight (not tilted, now I'm really being funny) from the card images.
Hi, Marc and Kirk (and all),

I appreciate that clarification and will suggest the name change to "photographic open" to our guild. I think the concept is good as a monthly thing, especially since there is always a prize. :)

But the iron shooter idea is also great. That should be introduced on the local, state and national level. The photographer could bring the print and the card to the competition, and a verification judge could confirm that the image on the card is, indeed, the unmanipulated original, still on the card since the moment it was recorded in the camera. Naturally, we would have to give up the use of that card until after the contest. I will now have to own two CF cards. ;)

There is no need to exclude film shooters. Their negative could be examined and compared to the entry print by the verification judge, to guarantee it is a "raw" image.

Jack_Reznicki
09-30-2006, 04:22 PM
That would be a good evening program for a convention. Let's see

Michael Taylor - Iron shooter (he actually did this in Japan) Portrait
Jack Reznicki - Iron shooter Commercial
Hanson Fong - Iron shooter Wedding


Marc,

Actually a bunch of us do this at many conventions. Canon has a small stage as a "shoot booth" and `several of us get on stage and just shoot. The files go straight to a tech, via wireless, and they blow them up to 20x30 or so while we're still on stage. The prints then get hung.
I'll be doing a session at PhotoExpo in NY in Nov.
Monte Zucker usually does a session or two. In fact Monte has picked up at least two lighting schemes from watching us shoot. Douglas Kirkland, Paul Aresu, Clay Blackmore, Joyce Tenneson, etc.

A similar thing is what I do at Photoshop World. An 8x10 area and one lightbank on the trade show floor. No stage. I shoot and then hand off to Eddie Tapp, who then "pimps" my file.
PMA is another venue we do it at with a full stage .
Lots of fun and amazing how many different looks we can get in an hour on a small stage.
And we do all try to outdo each other. Lot of fun.

Eddie Tapp and I will do something similar at ImagingUSA this coming January as a pre-convention program. It's more of a lighting class by me and then Eddie Photoshops the heck out of it.

But a true "Iron Man" competition sounds like fun.

Linda_Gregory
09-30-2006, 04:38 PM
I broke my photographic teeth on transparencies.....with a category such as this, bracketing may come back in fashion! And to think, no more wasted film to do it!

Now, do many of you know how to use the auto bracketing feature on your DSLRs?

KirkDarling
10-01-2006, 01:31 AM
Jack,

Have you seen the Japanese food program "Iron Chef?" The premise is that the show's creator has selected various Japanese master chefs of several main types of cuisine, representing an "all-pro" group called the "Iron Chefs," including the "Iron Chef: Japanese," "Iron Chef: Chinese," "Iron Chef: Italian," et cetera.

Each week they take two up-and-coming chefs to challenge one of the Iron Chefs in a meal preparation contest. They always hold a "secret ingredient" secret until the beginning of the competition. For instance, at the last minute they tell the Iron Chef and the challengers that their surprise ingredient must be octopus or pumpkin or some such. Then they get exactly one hour to prepare a gourmet meal for the celebrity judges.

The program is telecast like a sports program, with travelling cameras, color commentators and such. The exciting thing is that they are all working simultaneously under the pressure of time on a meal they had no opportunity to plan in advance.

Finally the chefs present their meals to the celebrity judges, who taste, comment, score, and finally award the winner--either the Iron Chef defeats the challengers or one of the challengers manages to defeat the Iron Chef.

Mark_Levesque
10-01-2006, 01:35 AM
Since when did they move to the dual challenger format? Last time I watched (at least a year ago) it was mano a mano.

KirkDarling
10-01-2006, 03:34 AM
Since when did they move to the dual challenger format? Last time I watched (at least a year ago) it was mano a mano.

You're right. It's Iron Chef America that has two challengers.