PDA

View Full Version : DVD submission



JohnHeckler
07-12-2006, 05:04 AM
Does anyone have a recommendation for the size/resolution/file format one should use when saving images to be rendered to a DVD movie for the image certification?

Should you save the images like you would before sending them to a lab for prints, or since it will be viewed on a monitor, should you save them at more like 100dpi, etc?

Also, does each image have to be an 8x10 (or 4:5 aspect ratio) or can you have 8x8, 8x12, etc in the portfolio of images?

Thanks in advance for any help/guidance.

Zack_Davis
07-12-2006, 05:51 AM
http://ourppa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1299

Definitely save them at 300dpi minimum.

4:5 is the for the television and even if your image is 8x10 if their watching it on a 50" plasma then it will be more like an 11x14 or 16x20 so your more deciding the crop not the actual size the image will be displayed.

With DVD submission it must be viewable on a DVD player so burn the show to a DVD-R disc and ensure it displays for the minimum amount of time (3 seconds I belive).

Check out the other thread too!

D._Craig_Flory
07-12-2006, 12:19 PM
Good morning John and Zack;

I'll get back on later with a definite answer on resolution for the DVD. For now ... you both spoke of dpi. That is for printed forms like price lists and such. With digital images we talk about ppi. Dpi is dots per inch. Ppi is pixels per inch. If you send an image to the lab you are using ppi. If you have an image printed in a magazine you are talking about dpi.

D. Craig Flory PPA Certrified, PPA C.P.P. Liaison, Cr.Photog., ASP
floryphotog@mindspring.com

Jack_Reznicki
07-12-2006, 02:46 PM
I don't know the answer for this, but will wait to hear what Craig finds out.

But I can tell you that anytime I have to create a show or as we do every month for a salon I help with in NY, the biggest you ever need for a projector and the majority of monitors is 1024 pixels by 768 pixels at 72ppi. No more than that. Anything else will have to be sized down to that and that results in 2 things happening. One, it slows down your program showing the images because the files are bigger than they need to be and two, it might soften your files when it's res'd down.

The max on any projector is the 1024x768 @ 72ppi. That's it. Yes, it is a small file, but any more is just excess.

If you're making prints, then it's a different ballgame.

D._Craig_Flory
07-12-2006, 08:40 PM
Hi group;

PPA reps were in meetings today. I got to talk to a rep, a few minutes ago, and they said that Jack's suggestion sounded good. I got no definitive answer when I asked for a list of suggested programs to use. He agreed with me ... when any of you have all 20 images ready to burn ... call PPA to see if more information is ready. I read the .pdf and it seems to be incomplete and doesn't answer as much as I'd like to see addressed. So as I said ... when ready to burn a movie / DVD ... call (800) 786-6277 and ask PPA certification department at that time.

D. Craig Flory PPA Certified, Cr.Photog., PPA C.P.P. Liaison, ASP
floryphotog@mindspring.com

Wilson_Hitchings
07-13-2006, 02:04 AM
...it wasn't a DVD of stills, it was DVD-Video. Resolution meant nothing as NTSC video is 720x480 pixels (well, DV video is...) so resolution on the image is pretty much moot. And regardless of the resolution of your projector, if it projects NTSC video you get the same 720x480 pixels for that input.

Betsy_Finn
07-13-2006, 03:08 AM
Good point Wilson. Craig, can we find out a little more about the playback format on the DVD? I can think of several different ways a DVD of images could be created, but it's probably easier if we were able to define the submission requirements in a bit more detail. :)

Zack_Davis
07-13-2006, 03:37 AM
According to this televisons display images at a specified resolution but do not specify a PPI (like a CCD on digital cameras). http://www.ideastraining.com/PDFs/UnderstandingResolution.pdf

So a typical resolution TV will display at 704x480 (9.77"x6") or 800x600 (11.11"x8.33) for projectors but if it's a high def output device 1920x1080 (26.6"x15") there will be much more detail. BUT, while DVD has great detail it isn't high def... it's scaled down to 720x480. The reason it doesn't designate a PPI is because there's a wide variation on the amount of display pixel in every display. Some sets just have more pixels some just have less that are spaced further apart. Theres also the 1024x720 resolution but thats just the mid point between HD and standard def.

Wilson_Hitchings
07-13-2006, 05:46 AM
From my understanding, if you select a video input on a projector, you get 720x480 pixels regardless of the maximum resolution of the projector. So if you wish to project only NTSC video, getting a projector of greater resolution than 800x600 is a waste. The device would have to have a line doubler/quadrupler in order to create the additional data/pixels to project NTSC video at higher resolutions. The early projection televisions (notably Pioneers) had line doublers so they could claim 800 lines of resolution even though the video source BY LAW cannot exceed 525 lines of resolution. I don't have a projector so it's certainly possible they contain line doublers now but as far as I know just because you crank up the resolution on a projector doesn't turn a 1024x768 image into 1600x1200 or something like that.

If I'm correct, creating a DVD video of your certification images has little concern for the actual number of pixels in the individual image. In fact, since you'll be downsampling the image to a 720x480 format, you'll need good software to prevent unwanted artifacts.


According to this televisons display images at a specified resolution but do not specify a PPI (like a CCD on digital cameras). http://www.ideastraining.com/PDFs/UnderstandingResolution.pdf

So a typical resolution TV will display at 704x480 (9.77"x6") or 800x600 (11.11"x8.33) for projectors but if it's a high def output device 1920x1080 (26.6"x15") there will be much more detail. BUT, while DVD has great detail it isn't high def... it's scaled down to 720x480. The reason it doesn't designate a PPI is because there's a wide variation on the amount of display pixel in every display. Some sets just have more pixels some just have less that are spaced further apart. Theres also the 1024x720 resolution but thats just the mid point between HD and standard def.

Zack_Davis
07-13-2006, 08:22 AM
if you select a video input on a projector, you get 720x480 pixels regardless of the maximum resolution of the projector.

I've heard this to. The only way to get a truly HD picture from a project (as far as I have heard/researched) is to use a DVI connection so that the image is completly digital instead of being change from digital to analog and back to digital so it can be projected...

But a good piece of software should be just what you need. We use Pro Show Producer and just love it. We've used Nero when we first started doing slideshows and it's simple, does a good job at the render but takes a lot longer then Pro Show.

Maybe someday (in the not to distant future) they will make it so the images can be uploaded for review?

Jack_Reznicki
07-13-2006, 09:47 AM
I love it when photographers, in order to impress others with what they know, will beat something like this to death with tech talk.

XGA format, 1024 x 768 with a file at 72ppi, is a great standard for prepping your files. And what we're trying to do is have a standard for many uses. That happens to be a great one. One that will cover many bases without degrading your files.

When we project it isn't with a video input, it's a computer input.

Other display formats- VGA EGA, VESA, SVGA, SXGA1, SXGA2, SXGA3, UXGA, iMacVGA, Mac19, NTSC, PAL, and many many more. Pick one to cover a lot of uses.
Well, the one that covers the most bases would be XGA.
Are there exceptions? Yuh. But who cares?

If your studio set up is such that you only use a SVGA format becaus ethat's your projector's native resolution, than you can set all your projection files at 800x600. But if you want to set your files once and not think about it too much, my suggestion is an XGA format.

My projectors are all XGA native, meaning that they project 1024 x 768. If you project a smaller file, it'll res it up. I'd rather have it a native size.

Again, for entries we will need a format that is a good standard to view the entries in the best way possible.

David_Mithofer
07-13-2006, 09:07 PM
Wow, the forums do work. In this case a member answered the question for us. I checked with one of our volunteer experts and he told me that Wilson Hutchings response was right on the money. DVD images are only played at 720 x 480 pixels. Anything larger that that is just excess.

It's great to see so many questions posted here and great to see all of the members jumping in with helpful information.

Sincerely,
David Mithofer
Manager, Member Services

KirkDarling
07-13-2006, 09:25 PM
Seems like it's taking quite a while to boil down a weiner that should have been cooked long ago.

Wilson_Hitchings
07-13-2006, 10:49 PM
If you'll read the original thread, the poster was asking about their certification images. I was certified within the last 6-8 months and the PPA insisted upon DVD video for submission, NOT still images. Apparently the PPA doesn't want to bump through a disk of images at different resolutions, which I think is a good decision. DVD video is a standard that allows the certification images to just play on the screen with no intervention on the part of the reviewer.

I also know that computer projectors will project the resolution they're designed to do IF the input can match that resolution. For many projectors, if you select NTSC video input the resolution drops to 720x480 without the use of line doublers to enhance the output. Some projectors may use doublers, I don't know; the fact is no more than 720x480 pixels can be input through the "Video In" jack (actually, it's 525 lines of resolution). I wasn't recommending people that project only computer output sell their projectors or that they've wasted their money. I'm merely stating that if you project ONLY video with the unit you do not need anything greater than 800x600.

Should the PPA be requesting on DVD video for certification, some of the initial responses were incorrect in recommending fairly high resolution images on disk. I attempted to correct that impression, and in fact warn the person involved that packing a high resolution image down to 720x480 can result in artifacts that would be visible on the screen. Since I do both video and photography I thought my comments pertinent.


I love it when photographers, in order to impress others with what they know, will beat something like this to death with tech talk.

XGA format, 1024 x 768 with a file at 72ppi, is a great standard for prepping your files. And what we're trying to do is have a standard for many uses. That happens to be a great one. One that will cover many bases without degrading your files.

When we project it isn't with a video input, it's a computer input.

Other display formats- VGA EGA, VESA, SVGA, SXGA1, SXGA2, SXGA3, UXGA, iMacVGA, Mac19, NTSC, PAL, and many many more. Pick one to cover a lot of uses.
Well, the one that covers the most bases would be XGA.
Are there exceptions? Yuh. But who cares?

If your studio set up is such that you only use a SVGA format becaus ethat's your projector's native resolution, than you can set all your projection files at 800x600. But if you want to set your files once and not think about it too much, my suggestion is an XGA format.

My projectors are all XGA native, meaning that they project 1024 x 768. If you project a smaller file, it'll res it up. I'd rather have it a native size.

Again, for entries we will need a format that is a good standard to view the entries in the best way possible.

Jack_Reznicki
07-14-2006, 02:07 AM
Some projectors may use doublers, I don't know; the fact is no more than 720x480 pixels can be input through the "Video In" jack (actually, it's 525 lines of resolution).

All my Epson projectors are native 1024x768 @72ppi. There is no doubling. I do not use the video in, but rather my computer for input.
Ron Nichols on the PPA board is charged with looking into standards for submissions. I'll be helping him. In a quick discussion we had, we quickly said, without doing any research, we both thought off the cuff, that 1024x768 would be the standard. We would go smaller if there was a valid reason, but we'd liek to get as much resolution as possible. Color space and file compression are the other issues. When you take a DVD or CD at that resolution through a native XGA projector, 1024x768 is the preferred size for XGA, so there is no upres'ing.

I'm sure you're correct for video resolution, but what we're looking at is projecting images from a computer either onto a calibrated monitor or a calibrated projector. I'm a bit confused as to where a video in or out comes into play. How do you calibrate a TV is one question I have.
Wouldn't you ratehr have your work viewed and judged on a calibrated device?

Zack_Davis
07-14-2006, 02:35 AM
How do you calibrate a TV is one question I have.

Using the ColorVision SpyderTV of course! :)
http://www.colorvision.com/profis/profis_view.jsp?id=402

It appears to calibrate every type of television.

Wilson_Hitchings
07-14-2006, 02:53 AM
...for my certification. I was requested or told to have DVD video, hence my comment. It isn't a resolution issue, of course any photographer would want a high resolution to show their work. But you can easily fit the small number of images required for certification on a CD, not a DVD, hence the assumption that the original poster was required to have DVD Video as I was.

Televisions can be calibrated. In fact, virtually every DTS video you get on a DVD has a calibration routine included to set brightness levels. Since televisions don't rely on a certain distance of the viewing screen to present the image, they present a constant brightness and color just like a CRT does.

As far as my viewing experience with projectors goes, I have yet to see even a single projected image that comes close to the image shown on the monitor of the computer driving the projector. I go up to the computer showing a projected photo at every conference I go to and the projected image is a poor representation of the computer screen without fail. If you were judging my images for certification, I'd prefer a CRT first, television second and projected image not at all.

Still think I'm trying to impress anyone with jargon? Was I correct about video projection? Was my experience with certification pertinent?


All my Epson projectors are native 1024x768 @72ppi. There is no doubling. I do not use the video in, but rather my computer for input.
Ron Nichols on the PPA board is charged with looking into standards for submissions. I'll be helping him. In a quick discussion we had, we quickly said, without doing any research, we both thought off the cuff, that 1024x768 would be the standard. We would go smaller if there was a valid reason, but we'd liek to get as much resolution as possible. Color space and file compression are the other issues. When you take a DVD or CD at that resolution through a native XGA projector, 1024x768 is the preferred size for XGA, so there is no upres'ing.

I'm sure you're correct for video resolution, but what we're looking at is projecting images from a computer either onto a calibrated monitor or a calibrated projector. I'm a bit confused as to where a video in or out comes into play. How do you calibrate a TV is one question I have.
Wouldn't you ratehr have your work viewed and judged on a calibrated device?

Jack_Reznicki
07-14-2006, 07:09 AM
Wilson,

I suddenly realized that we may be talking apples and Buicks.
If you’re talking about submitting a “video” (moving pictures as opposed to a still image), than I yield to your knowledge of video. Not my field. My apologies for that confusion.

If we’re talking still image submission, than I stand on exactly what I said. 1024x768 @72ppi.
I don’t want to confuse people who are doing projection sales and reading that something smaller is all they need.

In fact one of the reasons Mr. Nichols will be looking into standards is because we don’t understand why a video is required for still submissions. That one had us scratching our heads, as I now remember that meeting. I forgot about that until this thread. We are moving to digital still submissions in the future and that standard will most likely be XGA resolution, 1024x768.. And the method to view and judge the work, will most likely be a monitor or a projector, not a TV.

And as far as a projection image looking like a computer driven monitor, please check out the Eye1 Beamer by Greytag Macbeth and on a good projector, like any of the Epsons or the new Canons.
And when the next generation of digital projectors come out, the quality will be astounding. I got a preview of them at a Canon Expo last year when they showcased upcoming technologies. The projectors and monitors were like looking at chromes. No scan lines. Amazing.

RonNichols
07-14-2006, 02:13 PM
Right now the certification requirements for DVD submission specify that the images be DVD Video format, no sound. DVD slide show images must exhibit for 3 seconds. A transition may be used, but it must be the same for all images. It also must be in NTSC encoding.

Given that format, the images will be 720 x 480 pixels.

It would my suggestion that prior to rendering the DVD, the images should be resampled (in Photoshop) to close to those dimensions. If you start with larger images and have the DVD software resample (which it will do automatically) you do stand a much higher probability of artifacts as Wilson stated.

If you are concerned about your images being represented in this lower resolution format, you can still submit prints.

As Jack mentioned, we are looking at the submission requirements and will reviewing the process. Part of our goal is to provide a step-by-step solution to applicants.

The current DVD Video submission process was selected because it is an industry standard format. Other processes involve more factors like color space, resolution and display method.

In the current digital world, we have lots of options, but few standards.

Betsy_Finn
07-14-2006, 02:32 PM
Thanks for the clarification Ron :)

KirkDarling
02-14-2007, 03:39 AM
Right now the certification requirements for DVD submission specify that the images be DVD Video format, no sound. DVD slide show images must exhibit for 3 seconds. A transition may be used, but it must be the same for all images. It also must be in NTSC encoding.

Given that format, the images will be 720 x 480 pixels.

It would my suggestion that prior to rendering the DVD, the images should be resampled (in Photoshop) to close to those dimensions. If you start with larger images and have the DVD software resample (which it will do automatically) you do stand a much higher probability of artifacts as Wilson stated.

If you are concerned about your images being represented in this lower resolution format, you can still submit prints.

As Jack mentioned, we are looking at the submission requirements and will reviewing the process. Part of our goal is to provide a step-by-step solution to applicants.

The current DVD Video submission process was selected because it is an industry standard format. Other processes involve more factors like color space, resolution and display method.

Any further movement on this effort? Ron? Jack?

Dave_Cisco
02-14-2007, 03:51 AM
This stuff puts a headache on my face.:D

Craig_Carl
02-17-2007, 06:10 PM
Hi folks,

We are PPA of PA members, and "aspiring" PPA members, who have produced some commercial videos. I'd be glad to personally advise anyone who is preparing a DVD of still photographs. Generally:

- NTSC video has a limited dynamic range, from 16-235 (vs. the 0-255 in 8-bit photo files), so we apply a "reverse S-Curve" to avoid crushing the blacks and blowing the whites in photos;

- Photo saturation should be reduced, especially the reds;

- The video-DVD preparation process typically will reduce image sharpness when it resizes your images, unless you accurately size and sharpen your files (we use Photoshop) beforehand;

- The 720x480 (3:2 ratio) NTSC-format video pixels are electronically compressed rectangularly, to display a standard (4.09:3 ratio) TV picture -- or worse yet, are super-stretched to 853x480 pixels to display a 16:9 widescreen picture -- not equating to the number of undistorted square pixels in your photo file;

- TV sets have "over-scanning" circuits that block the top, bottom, and (especially the) side edges of an image from being displayed, unlike digital projectors and computer monitors;

- Professional video-editing monitors and digital projectors do require calibration. Consumer TV sets can only be roughly adjusted, because they have circuits which constantly fiddle with the gamma, color boosts (typically the reds and "skin tones"), etc.

Therefore, we:

- show resized/sharpened 768-pixel-high JPEG, TIFF, PNG or PSD files to our portrait clients on a high-definition (1280x768) projector (calibrated with Spyder2 Pro), directly from our iMac, using Adobe Bridge (not video);

- make DVD video slideshows for clients to play on their TVs and computers, using a gray 655x480 Background in Photoshop. We never use black or white backgrounds/mats, which can really freak-out the automatic picture-balancing circuits in consumer TVs. Each TV model is different, so you can't predict all of the bad stuff that can happen to your beau-ti-ful pic's (tell your customers that you can re-do the DVD to fix any problems that appear on their own sets). For example: a horizontal 10x8 portrait would be down-sized to roughly 550x440 pixels, sharpened like a Web file (e.g., 150/0.3/0 Unsharp Mask), drop-shadowed or bevel-edged, and then placed over a 655x480 50%-gray Background layer;

- test each DVD on two consumer DVD players and TV sets -- examining each photo to ensure that its contrast, gamma, saturation and sharpening look natural on typical "end user" sets;

- will submit our 8x10 CPP portfolio in print form, not in a video DVD. If we must make a digital portfolio submission, we'd prefer to downsize/sharpen and copy our JPEG (sRGB-profile flagged) print files onto a CD for review on a calibrated computer monitor. Then we don't need to mix Apples with PCs (er, oranges).

Have fun, and it is nice meeting you,

"Brandon's Dad"
(717) 249-7973
www.carlphotography.com