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Lynn_Andrews
03-09-2012, 02:45 AM
I am a first timer and I think I followed all the parameters for entry to the letter, but i am seeing an "NA" next to my entry. I assume I was disqualified, but not sure why. I'd like to ensure I correct whatever mistake I made, so this does not happen in the future. How can i find out where my error was? Any advise is greatly appreciated!! Lynn Andrews and "The Dark Passage." p.s. any critiques of my photo are absolutely welcome too, regardless of how brutal!! TKS

Rick_Massarini
03-09-2012, 03:16 AM
Where is this NA to which you are referring? Can you supply more information so someone may be able to help you? The only place that I know of where the letters NA are used is at the International Photographic Competition (IPC) where it stands for Not Accepted. That would not be used at a District judging since they use numerical scores at Districts.

Christine_Walsh-Newton
03-09-2012, 03:23 AM
Rick - there were about 35 images with NA in the score column in the Western District results. Lynn's was one of them.

Rick_Massarini
03-09-2012, 03:51 AM
Hmmm.... I pulled up the results for western District and I see what you're talking about. The NA may mean that the image was disqualified.

There are only a few things I can think of that can get an entry disqualified...

Two or more images of the same subject
An image that has a studio logo or the maker's name visible anywhere on the front
A file that is too large or too small

In addition - for prints...
Prints mounted on metal or plexiglas
Prints having materials on the front or back that could cause damage to other prints.
Print too large - over 480 square inches or longer than 24" on the longest side
Image too small - under 80 square inches

Do any of your images have any of these issues???
Also - Lynn, we have no way of seeing your images from the Western District judging. If you want a critique, post them here.

Jeff_Dachowski
03-09-2012, 04:03 AM
It also could and likely means that it scored below exhibition standards. 69 or lower.
Jeff

Rick_Massarini
03-09-2012, 04:22 AM
Jeff, you're right.

I originally just glanced at the Western District report and saw the NA - I didn't go through it and look at the reported scores. I just went back and looked at the report, and the lowest recorded numerical score on the report is a 70 - so that may be what it means - they may be using NA for scores below 70.

Lynn, post your images and we'll critique them for you - or if you don't want to post them here, you can send them to me via email.

Lynn_Andrews
03-09-2012, 04:46 AM
Thanks,I will post the image as soon as I get home. Thanks everyone for the input! Guess I have a lot of work and studying to do. Lynn

Lynn_Andrews
03-09-2012, 05:53 AM
11476 The question of whether it was entered in more that one category or not mounted properly do not apply as it was a digital image and only in one category. I understand it must not be a very good photo. Still got lots to learn. Thanks for the heads up everyone.

Rick_Massarini
03-09-2012, 06:34 AM
11476 The question of whether it was entered in more that one category or not mounted properly do not apply as it was a digital image and only in one category.
I think you may have misread - I didn't say entered in more than one category - you can only place it in one category - but if you have two images of the same subject that will get them disqualified - you can only enter one image of any subject so if you had two images of this scene from different angles, then your submission would be disqualified.

When I first looked at the image, I really didn't find this image to be all that bad, but the longer it sits there the more confusing it becomes. All the bright spots in the image keep taking my attention to the windows and away from the passageway. The vertical lines not being perfectly straight could have held it back a bit. The white spot in the upper left hand corner is very distracting. The windows appear to be blown away, and there are some really dark shadows in there, and the combination may have been enough to keep it down. If the shadows are blocked up and the highlights blown away, the image will not score well. From the small size of this image, it's difficult to see if there is detail in the blacks or if it is blocked up, and I can't tell if there is any pixelation in the file. And the title doesn't help it since the passageway is not really dark with all of those windows...

This looks to be a very intriguing image and looks like it could have real possibilities... I hope you don't mind my copying and reposting the image here for illustration purposes. If you like, after you see my take on it, I can pull it back down...
I burned the windows down to make it look darker and more moody so that it agreed with the title and feeling, took out the bright white spot in the upper corner, straightened the verticals, cropped it a bit tighter, flipped it right to left to take advantage of the leading line of the staircase edge so that the eye travels more naturally up the stairwell and towards that slightly brighter area at the top of the image on the right hand side. I added a gray key line (a tone that was picked up from the staircase wall) and an off center black mat. I also toned down the hot spot on the edge of the stairway support and on the middle stair landing. Also, since you are trying for a dark moody feeling, the warm tone is working against you, so I dropped out the color making the image black and white which gives you a colder feeling. I think that it would score much higher if presented like this... I could see this image scoring in the mid 80's with the right title... What do you think???

Lynn_Andrews
03-09-2012, 07:09 AM
Wow, what a difference! You are spot on. Thanks for the great feedback. I will pay much closer attention to the distractions in the future. Again, I appreciate the critique!

Rick_Massarini
03-09-2012, 07:20 AM
If you decide to enter it at the IPC, let me know how it does.

Ed_Sharp
03-09-2012, 12:02 PM
I look at this and wonder what it would look like with a subject standing with a hand on the railing.

Rick_Massarini
03-10-2012, 01:18 AM
I look at this and wonder what it would look like with a subject standing with a hand on the railing.

Yeah, this would be a great location for a bridal portrait.

Amy_Hall
03-10-2012, 02:49 AM
Wow, what a great learning experience. When I first looked at the image, I had the same feeling that Rick described. I didn't think it was bad but the more I looked at it, the more my eyes were going all over the place and especially to the bright spot in the upper left side. After reading Rick's critique, and his description of how he would've changed it, and seeing his image, I was amazed at what a difference there was. Thank you, Lynn, for sharing your photo so we can all have the opportunity to learn! And thank you, Rick, for always being so available for critiques.

Jane_Del_Vecho
03-12-2012, 12:29 AM
Wow what a great critique Rick! You see so much! I too entered an image that was scored a bit lower then what I was hoping for. It would be so helpful if we could hear what the judges comments were. Would it be too much to ask for your opinion on my entry? Would prefer it private though... Thanks!

Rick_Massarini
03-12-2012, 03:38 AM
Sure - send it to me via email to massphoto@cox.net

Rodney_Ninow
03-16-2012, 04:04 AM
Several of my friends attended the western division competition judging and I was told the judging was VERY harsh. Some of those that got NA, had actually been challenged DOWN from low scores, such as 72, 74, etc.

Rick_Massarini
03-16-2012, 11:09 PM
I can't see why the judging would be any harsher at Western States than at any other judging. The judges who were there were a group of very seasoned jurors whom I have seen judge many times before at District and at the IPC. Some of the jurors there have been jurors for many years. Same judges, same standards, the results should be the same. Remember, at a District judging, the aim of the jurors is to place the image in the category where it belongs. I can fully understand the jurors challenging a print down at a District judging if they truly believe that it is below Exhibition Standards, since they are charged with placing the print where it truly belongs, and want to give the correct message to the maker - even if that message is not pleasant.

J_Davidson
03-17-2012, 03:32 AM
Rick,

From the 3 districts that are posted you should take a look at the top 20 print case scores. The top western states case is roughly 50 points less than the other two districts. The other two districts are within a handful of points of each other, and the top 20 cases have fairly close scores with most all merited. The same cannot be said for Western States.

On top of that there was one 100 print, and that same case had 76, 77 ,80. Some VERY big names that enter Western States did horribly across the board. There's a definate marked difference in scores that came out of Western States vs. the other districts that are currently posted. Only one case in the entire district went 4/4. There's a lot that simply just does not add up.

It has confounded many of us.

Jeff_Dachowski
03-17-2012, 04:15 AM
Jill,
Keep in mind that geography of WS is far different than the other regions. The amount of print comp ed gets spread pretty thin when you have few photogs and lots of sq miles. NC, SE have a lot of photogs in their districts, over a lot less miles. One thing i ave learned s myimages always get what they desrve in a PEC judging. Every juror wnts to score the print 100 if it desrves it.

Rick_Massarini
03-17-2012, 05:37 AM
Rick,

From the 3 districts that are posted you should take a look at the top 20 print case scores. The top western states case is roughly 50 points less than the other two districts. The other two districts are within a handful of points of each other, and the top 20 cases have fairly close scores with most all merited. The same cannot be said for Western States.

On top of that there was one 100 print, and that same case had 76, 77 ,80. Some VERY big names that enter Western States did horribly across the board. There's a definate marked difference in scores that came out of Western States vs. the other districts that are currently posted. Only one case in the entire district went 4/4. There's a lot that simply just does not add up.

It has confounded many of us.

It looks like you've really spent a lot of time analyzing the data. But sometimes statistics can lead you to chase wild geese. Back in my college days, the instructor for my basic statistics course used to always warn that you can make statistics tell you anything that you wanted them to say. Statistics are objective while the scores on images are totally subjective.

I see no reason why anyone would expect that the scores in one district should fall statistically in line with those of another district. There are different people with different talents in every area and different people participating, while the judges and the standards are the same. There is no reason why one should expect that every district should have one photographer that would score an average of 95 on all four of their images. OK - so two districts this year had one person enter four exceptional images, that doesn't mean that you should expect the same from the third or fourth or fifth district. In a statistics class, those would be called "outliers" and they would usually be eliminated from consideration in any kind of statistical analysis since including those "outliers" would skew the results. I quickly looked over the results from Western District and there were quite a few "big names" I know of who did not even enter this year. In Southwest this year, there was one "big name" photographer who scored in the 90's on one image and the other three didn't merit - so just because a photographer is well known doesn't mean that they will necessarily score high numbers on every image they enter.

TracyeGibson
03-20-2012, 04:19 PM
Well said Jeff and Rick! (And Rick I think I know who you are refering to and he was REALLY happy that he got that 90!) I am wondering if it is the 'styles' of the districts that is the issue. Not sure but I think east coast is more traditional portraiture, and maybe west coast is more landscapes, action and photojournalistic? And by traditional I don't mean 'old school- SOC' but posed portraits, 'traditional' lighting patterns, details in dark and light areas. I think the west coast is going along the more modern 'magazine ad' look trend. I KNOW there are traditional photogs on the west coast but I wonder if there are alot of newbies out there which makes the 'statistics' off? And believe me! I am in SW and we have some of the toughest/highest scoring photogs in this district and it is HARD for judges to be subjective on a print after scoring one of Sturdevant's or Emmerich's prints!

belladreams
03-21-2012, 09:09 PM
Thank you Rick for sharing your insight on Lynn's image! It was really enlightening to see her original image and what you would do with it. Thank you!