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Mark_McCall
07-06-2011, 08:33 PM
Need input.

We've got an upset member of our state organization that feels artwork should only be applied by the photographer who captured the shot, if entering in print competition.

But I remember the wording in past rules forms that artwork can be applied "under the direction of the photographer", but it's no longer on the print entry forms.

Does anyone have a link to a document that holds that wording?

Personally, I do all my own artwork, but I know some who let the lab or another artist do it. From what I understand, this is allowed. Correct?

Keith_A_Howe
07-06-2011, 10:35 PM
Mark,
I remember it the same as you do "under the direction of". Unfortunately it seems PPA has removed all the 2011 rules from the website. I guess they don't think anyone wants to refer to them after the fact. I will contact Randy and see if he can either get them back up on the site or at least send you a copy. I am almost 100% positive though that nowhere in any rules does it say the photographer must be the artist. So I would think if it doesn't say it has to be the same person, that means it can be someone else. Is your member trying to change some results that have already been decided? Or are they trying to change the rules for the future? Because it certainly wouldn't be fair to change the rules after the fact.

Keith

Mark_McCall
07-06-2011, 11:21 PM
Keith,
I don't think he wants to do either.
He doesn't enter competition, but has been bashing the process on Facebook.
He doesn't feel any graphic art should be entered in competition. (funny, seeing that he doesn't enter himself).

He feels that graphic art shouldn't be judged as a photograph, because it's NOT a photograph in his opinion. ie: Richard Sturdevant.

Jack_Reznicki
07-07-2011, 01:54 AM
No different than in the analog days when retouchers did it by hand.
The role of photographers kleeps changing and evolving.
Today, a photographer is like the director on a film. It's the director's vision that gets the credit, not the director of photography, the cameraman.
I can show you a top retouchers and their work with three different photographers and I'll show you three different results.
Still a photographer's vision.

Keith_A_Howe
07-07-2011, 02:03 AM
Sour grapes - has to belittle it so he doesn't feel like a failure seeing as how he can't do it himself. Or maybe he can but is too chicken to try? He must really really wish he could enter and do well, because if he actually didn't care, he wouldn't be wasting his time bashing it. He'd just be ignoring it all together.

Keith

GregYager
07-07-2011, 09:25 AM
Bashing the contest is pointless. Most especially if you don't participate. Both schools of thought have valid arguments but the contest is not based on a head to head format but rather a self evaluation format. It's a way to test your skills in whichever way you choose. You can test your individual skills by entering a one maker entry or you can test your work using the same method you would use for your clients including the work of retouchers, labs, finishers etc... The results really only matter to you. The way I see it is you almost have to view yourself as a studio and not just an individual photographer. This ability to have your work judged against standards is the important part of the competition. The few head to head competitions is the only place an argument would exist for one maker vs one maker but to me those titles are more of a prestige value.

Bashing the system without participating is... Well...cowardice.

Joe_Galioto
07-07-2011, 02:41 PM
same argument has come up for years
wouldn't it be interesting to have a raw category?
everything done in camera only, no post production
this would separate the photographers from the computer geeks

Mark_McCall
07-07-2011, 03:48 PM
Jack,
I agree completely.
Back when I sent my first cases in, I had the lab do some work on the prints (back in the days when they used car pinstriping to make strokes. LOL).
I was told by the lab tech that it's a normal and accepted practice.
Our friend points out that allowing anyone to work on the print other than the submitter is not mentioned in the rules. Seems like it used to be.
In a private message to me on Facebook, he says that PPA left it out intentionally, so that the rules can be applied after the fact.
I disagreed, but cut off any communication with him after that.

Keith,
You read my mind.
I've been the target of some purists comments standing around the print racks at Southwest, once in Kansas and again in New Hampshire.
My gut feeling is that the guys who complain about art in print entries are those who aren't Photoshop literate, or who haven't reached a certain level of proficiency.
I haven't said so publicly ie: Facebook, but I sure wanted to.

Joe,
Thanks for the comments.
Actually, you can enter an unretouched image into print competition.
Just two weeks ago, I took home "Best Image of a Groom" with a score of 88 from Kerrville. Subject was an 82 year old man, in tux, in the church, totally unretouched other than a vignette. (which I would have done even if I'd shot film).

Here's the funny part. Edythe at BWC called me.
"You missed all the artwork to the groom's face. He has liver spots all over his face". LOL
I told her to print as is.

That's the beauty of print competition. Each image stands on it's own and isn't judged against other prints.

Keith_A_Howe
07-07-2011, 09:31 PM
There are a couple PPA programs that I don't participate in or support. Mainly because I don't agree with certain things about those programs. But even if they changed everything to my way of thinking, I still am not really inclined to particpate in those programs. The thing is, it's all stuff that just isn't important to me anyway. So I don't care enough to waste time arguing about it or bashing the programs. If I did, it would just be to stir up contraversy. I'm not afraid of a little contraversy, but I certainly not going to waste anybody's time creating it, just so I can sit in the corner and rub my hands together and cackle maniacly. That's just adolescent behavior. That's for people who want to talk the talk but are afraid to walk the walk. If this guy really doesn't want to enter why is he wasting time on this issue? Doesn't make sense. He either really has sour grapes like I mentioned before, or he is like a teenager that just wants to stir things up and waste people's time.

But that being said, I am almost ready to get into a sand kicking contest with whomever this guy is. Dennis Craft, Randy McNeally and several others on PEC are personal friends of mine. These people have ethics I hope to aspire to. The idea that he would slur their characters by suggesting they wrote the rules so they could manipulate stuff after the fact? It takes a lot to get me angry, but that makes me angry.


Keith

Keith_A_Howe
07-07-2011, 10:43 PM
The rules are once again available on the PPA website. However they are the 2011 rules and may change before 2012 or districts leading up to 2012.

Keith

Dennis_Craft
07-08-2011, 08:41 PM
The certification that the artwork was done by you or under your direction is still in place. It was never in the rules, it was in the box at the bottom of the entry form where you signed it. It is now at the end of the registration process before you upload your images to IPC. By submitting your images to IPC you are agreeing to the terms, which this is still a part of. When I get PPA to get into the registration process I can provide the exact wording but rest assured it is there.

Dennis Craft
Chairman of PEC

Tim_Babin
07-09-2011, 03:44 AM
In this day and age, how can anything be policed anyway and aren't we pretty much on our honor? Someone may get high scores and a masters, but if they did not do it themselves or under their direction, they cheated themselves more than they cheated others.