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KellyLynne2010
06-17-2011, 08:26 PM
Hopefully this is not a redundant post, i dont think my last one went up, if it did, so sorry. No merits and no loans for my first time , not exactly a loss. I still gained a wealth of knowledge! But would love some critiques on these.

http://www.ppa.com/community/forums/picture.php?albumid=808&pictureid=7395

KellyLynne2010
06-17-2011, 08:26 PM
http://www.ppa.com/community/forums/picture.php?albumid=808&pictureid=7398

KellyLynne2010
06-17-2011, 08:27 PM
http://www.ppa.com/community/forums/picture.php?albumid=808&pictureid=7396

KellyLynne2010
06-17-2011, 08:27 PM
http://www.ppa.com/community/forums/picture.php?albumid=808&pictureid=7397

Keith_A_Howe
06-17-2011, 08:52 PM
Kelly,
I would like to know the titles. You've got some story telling, the composition looks good. I am liking the color harmony. Presentation looks nice. I am guessing maybe there are some technical issues. So I would like to see these larger. Can you email me the full res full size files? Send to imager410@hotmail.com. I think I can see some things that might have held these down but at this size and resoultion, I would just be guessing.

Keith

KellyLynne2010
06-17-2011, 08:57 PM
sure, i can email them. Titles are 1:Farewell to Childhood 2: Solace 3: Thoughful Refuge 4: Semi Independent

KellyLynne2010
06-17-2011, 09:04 PM
Sent, thanks Keith :) you are always so helpful!

bwalker
06-17-2011, 09:12 PM
Kelly, I checked out your web site. You've got an eye for the unusual and you've got so many great images. A wonderful collection!

KellyLynne2010
06-17-2011, 09:15 PM
oh thank you Billy, that put a smile on my face, needed that, :)

Roger_Williams
06-17-2011, 09:36 PM
Kelly,
I would like to know the titles. You've got some story telling, the composition looks good. I am liking the color harmony. Presentation looks nice. I am guessing maybe there are some technical issues. So I would like to see these larger. Can you email me the full res full size files? Send to imager410@hotmail.com. I think I can see some things that might have held these down but at this size and resoultion, I would just be guessing.

Keith

With Kelly's permission, would you post your comments so the rest of us can learn.

GregYager
06-17-2011, 09:45 PM
Kelly, Did you enter these as prints or digital files?

KellyLynne2010
06-17-2011, 09:52 PM
i dont mind at all. There were a few minor things that bothered me on a few of these images, will be interesting to see if he is bothered by the same things. He says he is going to look at them tonight.

KellyLynne2010
06-17-2011, 09:53 PM
Greg, as prints, not digi

JohnHeckler
06-17-2011, 09:56 PM
I think they are all very good images. Its hard to say without seeing the actual prints what kept the judges from meriting them. I do think I see some areas that are blocked up on some as well as some rather flat lighting on the subjects on a couple. I'm picking on them because I think that's the point of this thread and sticking them out here for us to discuss because overall, if I was your client, I would love them :)

Keith_A_Howe
06-17-2011, 09:58 PM
With Kelly's permission, would you post your comments so the rest of us can learn.

Kelly sent me the full size files and we set a time to visit on the phone this evening. I really prefer to talk to people one on one because then you know right away if you are being clear or there is a misunderstanding and it's easier for me to talk then type. But I will certainly try to paraphrase our conversation later tonight and post it here. And Roger, you are more then welcome to post your images too if you want. I do prefer to see full res full size files because it's hard to tell a lot from small files on here.

Wouldn't it be cool to do a webcast print critique sometime? Where people could upload images in advance and then log into the webcast to listen to feedback on their images and other people's also. Maybe limit it to 6 - 8 participants and charge a small fee? Hmmmmm, maybe that's something I could do early next year before districts start happening. I am not web savy enough to know how to set that up. Anybody out there able to do this?

Keith

KellyLynne2010
06-17-2011, 10:17 PM
thank you for that john and good idea Keith, okay ill send the full size files now.

DianeDavis
06-17-2011, 10:39 PM
Webcast is a great idea, Keith. I know Zack knows how to do it. I'll have him get in touch with you.

bwalker
06-17-2011, 11:27 PM
Kelly sent me the full size files and we set a time to visit on the phone this evening. I really prefer to talk to people one on one because then you know right away if you are being clear or there is a misunderstanding and it's easier for me to talk then type. But I will certainly try to paraphrase our conversation later tonight and post it here. And Roger, you are more then welcome to post your images too if you want. I do prefer to see full res full size files because it's hard to tell a lot from small files on here.

Wouldn't it be cool to do a webcast print critique sometime? Where people could upload images in advance and then log into the webcast to listen to feedback on their images and other people's also. Maybe limit it to 6 - 8 participants and charge a small fee? Hmmmmm, maybe that's something I could do early next year before districts start happening. I am not web savy enough to know how to set that up. Anybody out there able to do this?

Keith

That is a wonderful offer Keith! Phone conversations are the ideal way to do it, far better than a forum conversation. It's really great for you to make that kind of offer.

Keith_A_Howe
06-18-2011, 02:28 AM
Uhm Kelly, you never sent me your phone number. You wanna give me a call at the number I emailed you?

Keith

Michael
06-18-2011, 02:35 AM
Kelly,
Don't forget you can ask for a video critique from one of the International Jurors at IPC every year. I just returned from there and we critiqued over 1,000 prints this year alone. Might be a good idea next year. Each critique lasts from 3 to 5 minutes.

Angela_Lawson
06-18-2011, 03:13 AM
Michael - any idea when we will receive those critiques?

Michael
06-18-2011, 03:19 AM
They are in post production now. We had more this year than we expected and stayed late and came in early on the judging days to get them all done. There was a lot of emphasis on the critiques and in my opinion will be the best ever. You have no idea, the amount of work and manpower that was used this year. I am excited to have these posted soon. I have no firm date, but I am sure you will be notified.

Keith_A_Howe
06-18-2011, 10:49 PM
So here is a highly abridged version of what Kelly and I talked about last night

Farewell to Childhood - Severely under printed. In levels take the mid tone slider to about 60. Change crop to eliminate feet (which look like a fence post sticking out of the bottom of the coat) and large dark bush on left. We ended up with a crop about at subject's mid thigh. It placed the horizon line at about 1/3 up from the bottom and the clouds about /3 from the top. These changes will help the image but what's not changable is subjects squinty expression and the fact that the coat is too big for her and a style that does not look like a 12 year old would be wearing it. The title is not quite right because there is nothing in this image that indicates leaving childhood behind.

Solace - good idea but big technical issues. Blown highlights in foreground and woman's hair is completly blocked up, so detail is lost on both ends of the spectrum. Also subjects' pose could be stronger. They are both very upright and static. By leaning the woman into the man more, we would get the impression that she is relying on him, being supported by him. Also there is a fold of the blanket that comes between their faces and when you see the full size image there is a blurry spot that appears to be a retouching issue on the woman's forehead.

Thoughtful Refuge -The title is not helping. Refuge imples shelter, and there is no shelter here. The wrong title will not hurt an image (unless it directs the judge's attention opposite of where it should be going) but a good title can certainly help an image. Holly suggested "Stranded" for this image because it creates a story of why this girl, in a formal dress, is sitting on the rocks in the middle of nowhere. Even with the better title this image has challenges that outweigh what is good about it. Fairly flat and very spectral light is creating distinct (harsh) shadows on the subject in an overall softly lit scene. It appears to be created from an on camera flash or off camera that was too close to camera angle. Using a lighting modifier to soften the light would have helped. Next the first thing - the brightest thing - you see in this image is the dress from the knees down. And because that area is also closer to camera it appears larger. And because we have the contrast of the cool dress against the warm background the dress takes on the center of interest. The girls left shoulder is popped up too high. While it is not comfortable for the subject, it looks better in a photograph to have the arm bent and the shoulder dropped. Lastly, on the full size image I could tell for sure what I thought I saw on this small file, the whites of the eyes are overworked. There is no longer any roundness to the eyeball and the subject is looking way far to her left causing the irises of her eyes to be to far into the corner.

Semi Independent - What is the very first thing you see in this image? The sign. What is the very first thing you should see - the subject. The lighting is flat and the camera angle is too low, so we are looking up the subjects nose. On the full size file it is obvious that whatever technique is applied to the background has been erased off the subject and also all around his feet and in between the spokes on the back most tire. If you are going to erase or mask an area, you need to be critically particular that it does not become obvious. When I do something like this, I zoom way in to a pixel by pixel level and make sure there are no tell tale signs. Kelly was aware of the issue before she entered it and asked someone she trusted if that would be a problem. Unfortunately she was told no. If you ever ask yourself "will the judges notice this? " or "will this problem be an issue?" the answer is always yes. Judges will notice every little thing you can see plus all the issues you never saw.

In our conversation Kelly mentioned that she asked 3 or 4 Master photographer's for help. Unfortunately they gave her some bad advice. So she asked me how to know who to trust. I told her that a Master's degree is not a measure of whether they can give you good advice for succeeding in print competition. You don't know if it took them 13 years to get 13 just barely merits on pretty pictures of flowers. So look to people who do well in competition year after year. And on places like this forum there are several kinds of advice. You will get bad advice sometimes. You will get people who just can't stand to hurt anyone's feelings so they gush about everything. You will get good advice that is just parroting back what they have been told. And you will get good advice that is really helpful. It's hard to know which is which. So you just kind of have to take it all in with a grain of salt and then decide for yourself what seems right to you. No one person will ever be completely right. And that's why there is more then one judge on a panel.

Keith

KellyLynne2010
06-19-2011, 06:42 AM
Thanks for that John!! very helpful. Actually out of the Masters that were helping me, one led me in the wrong direction, the others were on the ball, lol..hindsight.

Keith_A_Howe
06-20-2011, 05:58 PM
Actually out of the Masters that were helping me, one led me in the wrong direction, the others were on the ball, lol..hindsight.


I had quite a few masters tell me my chances were great.

I'm sorry Kelly. I had read that second quote above and took it to mean they all told you these images had a good shot at meriting. Sorry if I "dis"-ed them without knowing it!

Keith