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A_McCormick
06-16-2011, 05:43 PM
I'm going to start working on my EI Masters next SEPPA. I was curious if I could submit an image both in the EI category and in another category?
In other words can the same image merit in two different categories that way I could get merits for EI, plus work on my extra merits i need at the same time.
Next question, if it doesn't merit in EI, could i submit the same image to a different category at another competition?
thanks.

Joe_Campanellie
06-16-2011, 05:54 PM
No...once an image merits in any category it's done. Can't submit the same image in multiple categories.

If it doesn't merit you can make changes or try again at a later date. That would be the importance of getting a crtique so you have an idea of where the image fell short.

A_McCormick
06-16-2011, 06:13 PM
great. Thanks Joe

Keith_A_Howe
06-16-2011, 08:57 PM
Andrew,

Actually you will no longer be able to earn the EI degree. It has been renamed the Master Artist degree. If you already had merits toward the EI degree you had the option to finish up earning the required merits within 2 years (2011 & 2012) and still be known as a Master of Electronic Imaging. That grace period was added when the name was changed because of me. I am already a Master Artist (from before when it was traditional artwork) I objected to having to be known as M.Photog., M. Artist, M. Artist, Cr. PEC researched it and I was told I am the only PPA member in this situation so they decided to give me two years to finish up. I thought that was very fair. Of course that two years also applies to anyone else who would prefer to be known as a Master of Electronic Imaging rather then a Master Artist. Because you said "I'm going to start working on my EI Masters " I know you do not have any EI merits yet and it is impossible to earn 13 EI competition merits in one year, so you will not be able to make the deadline. You will be a Master Artist when you finish earn the merits, not a M.E.I.

Next you asked " if it doesn't merit in EI, could I submit the same image to a different category at another competition?" Joe answered this but I want to elaborate. If an image does not merit it can be entered again in another competition and you can change the catergory. For example if it does not merit in EI you can enter it in the next competition as EI OR PO. I know two people who did exactly that, entered an EI print at SEPPA and did not merit, so they entered the same exact print at Northeast in PO and recieved a seal. I had an image that did not merit in EI last year. I made some changes and entered it at SEPPA this year and again it did not seal. I made some more changes and entered it at IPC that just finished. That was all perfectly within the rules. If an image does not merit it is the same as an image that has never been entered in the eyes of PEC.

Keith

Mark_McCall
06-16-2011, 09:09 PM
Keith,
Thanks for that info. I had no idea they'd changed the name of the degree to Master Artist.

Question for both Joe and Keith...
I heard this question floating around at the Judges School this week.
If someone got a seal at their regional, but the image could have been sent to SEPPA and entered under Artist (MEI), could they bust the seal, and re-enter at SEPPA next year?

Also, I've been told that if you aren't a member of SEPPA, you aren't eligible for Kodak or Fuji Awards, or any of the others as a matter of fact, even though SEPPA is the only Artist Juding. Is that right?

Keith_A_Howe
06-16-2011, 09:28 PM
If someone got a seal at their regional, but the image could have been sent to SEPPA and entered under Artist (MEI), could they bust the seal, and re-enter at SEPPA next year?

First off, just so no one gets confused, you can no longer get a seal at a region competition. Seals are only given at the district level. BUT!! A region can host a district judging. So like this year our region was HOA and they hosted the Northcentral district. The seal was from north Central

yes, you can bust the seal. I assume it got a PO seal somewhere? and they didn't send it to IPC this year but chose to hold it for next year as an EI entry. Not a problem.


I've been told that if you aren't a member of SEPPA, you aren't eligible for Kodak or Fuji Awards, or any of the others as a matter of fact, even though SEPPA is the only Artist Juding. Is that right?

As far as I know there are not any Kodaks or Fuji's given for the EI catergory Maybe there were at SEPPA and then IMO those should have been open to all EI entries, not just in region. Some states or regions may have EI competition. I don't know for sure. But the only place that is an affilate EI comp where seals are possible is at the SEPPA district competition.

I do not have a problem with awards being for in region or in state only at district competitions. People who are out of state or region ( but in district) still have their own states and regions to be eligible for awards. Why should they also have a chance to take awards away from those of us who only have one shot because our region happens to be hosting the district that year.

Keith

Mark_McCall
06-16-2011, 09:43 PM
First off, just so no one gets confused, you can no longer get a seal at a region competition. Seals are only given at the district level. BUT!! A region can host a district judging. So like this year our region was HOA and they hosted the Northcentral district. The seal was from north Central

Officially confused.
My region is Southwest. or am I misreferring?

Dave Huntsman kept referring to districts at Judging School. I'm having trouble distinquishing between Region and District. Help me out.



As far as I know there are not any Kodaks or Fuji's given for the EI catergory Maybe there were at SEPPA and then IMO those should have been open to all EI entries, not just in region. Some states or regions may have EI competition. I don't know for sure. But the only place that is an affilate EI comp where seals are possible is at the SEPPA district competition.

I do not have a problem with awards being for in region or in state only at district competitions. People who are out of state or region ( but in district) still have their own states and regions to be eligible for awards. Why should they also have a chance to take awards away from those of us who only have one shot because our region happens to be hosting the district that year.

Like you, I'm all for keeping awards in state. (I got two 98's in New Mexico, yet all the hardware went to 84 and lower scores).
BUT....if SEPPA is the ONLY place I can enter EI (Artist), why wouldn't I be eligible for awards, since that's the ONLY place I can send them.....or am I misinformed?

Keith_A_Howe
06-16-2011, 10:40 PM
Officially confused.
My region is Southwest. or am I misreferring?

Dave Huntsman kept referring to districts at Judging School. I'm having trouble distinquishing between Region and District. Help me out.

Districts started last year after IPC. SWPPA was the first one. It just so happens that SW district is the same name as your region. I do not know if the new SW district is the same states that are in the SWPPA region. It could very well be. Anyway - SW district judging takes place at SWPPA. In the Northcentral district - which I am a part of - there rae 10 states and two Canadian provinces. http://www.ppa.com/pdfs/pecdistrict.pdf shows the map. Those states and provinces never belonged to a region called North Central. So our district judging was hosted by either a state or a region within that district. This last spring it was hosted by Heart of America region.


Like you, I'm all for keeping awards in state. (I got two 98's in New Mexico, yet all the hardware went to 84 and lower scores). ?
A lot of awards are decided in head to head judging - not by score. It is very comman for a lower scored print to recieve an award over a higher scoring print.

BUT....if SEPPA is the ONLY place I can enter EI (Artist), why wouldn't I be eligible for awards, since that's the ONLY place I can send them.....or am I misinformed?

What awards? As far as I know there aren't any specific awards strictly for EI. Kodak and Fuji do not give awards in the EI catergory as far as I have ever heard. Plus if SEPPA chooses to give awards for EI - that is a SE thing, not a PEC award. They can set the criteria to win however they want. PEC's only concern is seal or no seal. It is the only place you can send them for seals but I don't think it's the only EI competition anywhere. Other places may have EI competitions. I think I heard that FL does. It's not SEPPA's fault that SWPPA doesn't have an EI catergory. So why should they have to share their awards? SW certainly can if they want - it just would not be an affiliate ( for seals) competition. But SW could have an EI competition and give out all the awrds they want. The issue is numbers. Are there enough people entering EI to cover the cost of having a comp.

Hope this helps clear things up a bit.

Keith

A_McCormick
06-16-2011, 11:03 PM
Keith, thanks for the info. funny that PPA jsut came out with this brand new website for degree program to make it more understandable, and yet one of these degrees doesn't exist anymore.
So is the Artist degree going to be the same thing just different name?

Mark_McCall
06-16-2011, 11:42 PM
Thanks for that info. I'm the webmaster for Southwest and this is the first I've heard of the district thing.



A lot of awards are decided in head to head judging - not by score. It is very comman for a lower scored print to recieve an award over a higher scoring print.
Perhaps I should have elaborated.
At Southwest, Kodak Gallery, Fuji Masterpeice, as well as all other trophies are awarded to members only. If someone enters from outside the region, they can merit, but they're not eligible for awards.
Same goes for state level in Texas and New Mexico, as per my comment above.

I'm assuming SEPPA offers the same set of awards (or close to it) that SWPPA does. But unless I've been misinformed, SWPPA members entering in EI can enter their stuff at SEPPA but aren't eligible for hardware, even though we have no other place for EI to be judged. Am I making sense? and do I have it wrong?

I'm aware of the problem with the number of prints coming through EI and the cost associated with judging them.
I guess what I'm saying is.......
Since PPA members have no other place but SEPPA to enter EI, why are SEPPA members the only ones eligible for trophies?
Again, I may be totally misinformed.
And I'm ok with states/districts keeping all awards in house, but it seems all that goes out the window if that's the only place we can send EI prints.

It seems to me that, if SEPPA is the only district that can accept EI prints, awards given should be open to all that enter, not just SEPPA members.
I'm sorry,...I may not be parlaying my point very well. And apologies if I'm misunderstanding.

Keith_A_Howe
06-17-2011, 01:34 AM
I went straight to the authority, Randy McNeilly. Randy was print chair for SEPPA and is also the assistant chair of PEC and was acting chair of PEC at IPC this week. Randy said "There are NO awards whatsoever for EI cases at SEPPA other then being eligible for the Canon Par Excellance award" Anyone's EI case that goes 4 for 4 as well as all SEPPA member PO cases that go 4 for 4 are eligible for that award. So Mark - SEPPA member or not there is only one award available for EI cases and everyone has the same shot at winning it.

Keith

Rick_Massarini
06-17-2011, 01:55 AM
Since PPA members have no other place but SEPPA to enter EI, why are SEPPA members the only ones eligible for trophies?

I'm in SWPPA, not SEPPA, so I don't know what the award structure in SEPPA looks like...
But as far as the awards go, the trophies that are being given out at Regional competitions come from the Regional association not from PPA. So it would make sense that only the Regional association members would be eligible for the trophies since the regional association and their members paid for them, not PPA... For PPA, the Regional associations are hosting the PPA District Competitions. The trophies are for the members of the states that comprise that Regional Association. The new PPA District structure has nothing to do with the regional associations. Just because a state is in a particular PPA Competition District does NOT mean that their state must become a member of another Regional Association. It just means that members from states outside of the Region can send their images to that particular District competition for seal of approval judging. It is possible that there may be members from several regional associations all sending their images in to the same District Judging. I believe that this will be the case with some of the northeast states and their Regional associations...
And I know that explanation probably reads as clear as mud...

Mark_McCall
06-17-2011, 02:03 AM
Keith,
Thanks for going to all the trouble to settle that for me.
Seems I've been fed some bad information by someone even less educated than myself. LOL. You are an officer and a gentleman.
I will be sending my first EI case to SEPPA next spring. I'm excited!

I learned something else at IPC. Imaging Excellence Award Loans can be spread across PO and EI. AWESOME!

Rick,
You are correct. Only SWPPA members are eligible for the awards at our judgings.
I hold a dual membership between Texas/New Mexico. At the New Mexico Convention, I'm eligible for one award and one only....Best out of State, but I like that rule. Keeps guys from other states from swooping in and grabbing up the awards.
BTW....it was good to see you in IPC

Rick_Massarini
06-17-2011, 02:07 AM
Yeah Mark, it was nice seeing you again. I just wish that I could have hung out with the class a little bit more - but I was kept pretty busy this year... I wish I'd brought my pedometer with me - I'd like to know how many miles I walked this week !!! Hope you enjoyed it !!!

Keith_A_Howe
06-17-2011, 02:12 AM
Keith, thanks for the info. funny that PPA jsut came out with this brand new website for degree program to make it more understandable, and yet one of these degrees doesn't exist anymore.
So is the Artist degree going to be the same thing just different name?

Well, actually what the official explanation is that MEI is renamed Master Artist. Supposedly all the current MEI's didn't like being called that and wanted to be called Master Artists. Originally when the degree was created it was for videography and slide shows. That was probably 20-25 years ago. It eventually evolved to any image created with a digital camera and then further evolved to what it currently is- for the actual work done to an image with a computer. The master artist degree was earned through traditional artwork, either negative retouching or positive print work with dyes, oils, pencils, chalks etc. That is how I got my Master Artist degree. So several years ago the number of traditional artwork cases was dwindling and it was no longer financially feasible to seat a panel for an art tech judging to score 2cases, which is how many were at the last art tech at IPC. So PPA didn't do away with the Master Artist degree, it just kind of went dormant, because there were no competitions. Anyone who was actively entering Art Tech was given 4 years to complete the degree but no one did. So now we fast forward to last council meeting in Jan. PEC proposed to change the MEI dgree to now be called Master Artist. The other change is that entrants can now also add actual surface artwork with dyes, oils, etc to the prints. So while offcially the name of MEI was just changed to Master Artist, I feel that what really happened is the two degrees were combined. By the way, if anyone has old art tech merits still on their record, those can be applied to the new Master Artist degree. Also anyone who is currently an MEI or anyone who completes the requirments in this 2 year grace period will have the option to use whichever designation they wish - MEI or M.Artist.

Like I said earlier I am the only Master Artist who is actively pursuing the MEI degree. So what that means is when I finally get MEI I will be the last person ever to recieve all 4 PPA degrees. I am kinda proud of that!


Keith

Rick_Massarini
06-17-2011, 02:20 AM
So why not "Master Artist Squared" - that would be way cool - like an Artist on steroids - and you could be the only one!!!
(still punchy, I know...)

Keith_A_Howe
06-17-2011, 02:33 AM
So why not "Master Artist Squared" - that would be way cool - like an Artist on steroids - and you could be the only one!!!
(still punchy, I know...)

Nah, I want that super cool ribbon with 4 colors!

Keith

Rick_Massarini
06-17-2011, 02:34 AM
That would make you one of only 6 with all of them... there's only 5 right now - right?

Keith_A_Howe
06-17-2011, 02:39 AM
That would make you one of only 6 with all of them... there's only 5 right now - right?

I don't know. I know Helen and Paul Tishim, who else? I would like to know if you do. I do know that I was the 10th person ever to have three degrees.
Keith

JLozoya
06-17-2011, 03:52 AM
Keith Howe – A heartfelt Thank You for voicing your objection to the MEI/M.Artist name change. I’m very close to earning the EI degree and becoming the first in my state to do so. However, there is already a traditional M.Artist here and I feel that it will confuse a lot of people if these two different degrees have the same designation. It’s good to hear that there is now the option to distinguish between them as they both represent a great deal of dedication to obtain in different disciplines.

[QUOTE=Mark_McCall;257302]

Like you, I'm all for keeping awards in state. (I got two 98's in New Mexico, yet all the hardware went to 84 and lower scores).
QUOTE]

Correction - I personally received multiple "hardware" for a print that scored 97 during the same competition in which Mark McCall mentioned his two 98’s. Nor was I the only New Mexican to earn awards for prints scoring in the 90’s this same year. (Wanted to clarify this as there are a lot of gifted photographers here in the Land of Enchantment and it’s only right that their hard work and talent be recognized and not misrepresented.)

Once again Keith – you have my appreciation for helping to avoid a great deal of potential misunderstanding in regard to the MEI/M.Artist degree designation.

Rick_Massarini
06-17-2011, 03:52 AM
Off the top of my head... I know that Dwight has all 5 degrees as well as Robert Faust. I'll probably remember the other one around 3 AM or so when my brain resets...

Rick_Massarini
06-17-2011, 04:02 AM
Jessica,
Welcome to the Forum !
It was really nice to finally meet you and Oscar in San Antonio.
Are you coming to N'Awlins in January??

JLozoya
06-17-2011, 05:17 AM
Hello Rick,
Oscar & I enjoyed getting to finally meet you as well. Hopefully we’ll get a chance to actually talk in New Orleans!
All the time and effort that you and so many others dedicate to making IPC run smoothly is valued and appreciated.

Keith_A_Howe
06-17-2011, 01:27 PM
Keith Howe – A heartfelt Thank You for voicing your objection to the MEI/M.Artist name change. I’m very close to earning the EI degree and becoming the first in my state to do so. However, there is already a traditional M.Artist here and I feel that it will confuse a lot of people if these two different degrees have the same designation. It’s good to hear that there is now the option to distinguish between them as they both represent a great deal of dedication to obtain in different disciplines.


Just remember - you have to finish it up by IPC 2012 to have the option of being known as MEI.


Off the top of my head... I know that Dwight has all 5 degrees as well as Robert Faust. I'll probably remember the other one around 3 AM or so when my brain resets... I know this is a typo but somebody will get confused if we don't correct it - it's 4 degrees not 5. And you are right about Dwight. I had forgotten nabout him. Back when we would actually get a printed PPA directory every year all the degree holders were listed in the front. Now I don't think there is a list anywhere.

A_McCormick
06-17-2011, 02:55 PM
wow, who knew the can of worms i was opening with a simple question. LOL
can someone clarify for me that the M. Artist degree is still going to be for the same type submissions that the MEI was for. They just decided to rename it?

Keith_A_Howe
06-17-2011, 03:13 PM
wow, who knew the can of worms i was opening with a simple question. LOL
can someone clarify for me that the M. Artist degree is still going to be for the same type submissions that the MEI was for. They just decided to rename it?

Yes, the same kind of entries. You can also add traditional artwork, but that's an option not a requirment.

Keith

Rick_Massarini
06-17-2011, 03:21 PM
It's five degrees - you forgot Master Artist Squared !!!
just joking - yeah - it's a typo - carpal tunnel plus numerical dyslexia from looking at numbers all week...
The Four degrees are:
Master of Photography - gold
Photographic Craftsman - blue
Master Artist - white
Master of Electronic Imaging - red

And for Keith alone - for the Master Artist Squared - I'm gonna suggest green... or maybe purple, green, and gold (those are the Mardi Gras colors)

Denchamber
07-09-2011, 03:02 AM
Mark, I couldn't help noticing your quote:

"Like you, I'm all for keeping awards in state. (I got two 98's in New Mexico, yet all the hardware went to 84 and lower scores)."

As Print Committee Chair for the New Mexico Convention, I must remind you that there were a total of seven scores in the 90's, including yours, and that in this year's International Print Competition our New Mexico members had six prints accepted into the PPA Loan Collection. Not to mention that you actually did get hardware equal in size to all the other New Mexico winners at our convention - you will recall it was the out of state trophy.

Dennis Chamberlain
VP of PPANM
Adobe Certified Expert - Photoshop and Lightroom

Mark_McCall
07-09-2011, 02:45 PM
My apologies Dennis.
Thank you for bringing that to my attention. I didn't realize.

I didn't get to see all the judging, and didn't get to see all the prints/scores on the racks. Every time I tried to browse the gallery, I got pulled into a conversation.
I never did get to see all the work in depth, or see what everything scored.
Please accept my apologies.

I think that news is awesome. Especially when you see new faces on the podium the last few years. I listened for scores at the Awards Dinner, but they gave titles, but no scores.
I think Loan Collection news is awesome too. The state is getting stronger, and I'm really happy for you guys.

I've always held a deep respect for PPANM, and in no way did I mean to disparage with my comments.
I built the original website at no charge about 10 or 12 years ago.
Assisted with programs after the problems the state faced with a departing board member, at no charge, and always tried to help when PPANM called.

I hope you didn't take my comments as a knock on PPANM photographers, but I can see how it may have come across that way.
I was trying to commend the state for their rules regarding out of state members.
But not known for being all that eloquent.