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Howard_Kier
12-31-2010, 07:18 PM
As of 1:00 PM CST 12/31/10, all images which are available for critique have received at least one comment. As I went through these images, I noticed there were 3 of us working on comments, Andy, Greg and myself. Personally, I've been certified for years and just recertified. I know from Greg's comments he recently certified. As for Andy, well, he's been here forever, providing critiques. While I can't speak for the others, I do want to make a couple of comments.

I view the critique process as a learning opportunity. I think people would rather know now the strengths and weaknesses of their images before they submit their portfolio rather than when they receive a rejection letter. I'm also one to speak my mind. Finally, when going through a lot of images, it becomes tiring to repeat the same things. But just because something is not repeated from one image to another, it does not mean that comment is no longer true. Therefore, please understand, some photos may receive more commentary than others. All of this is intended to help you grow as a photographer.

GregYager
12-31-2010, 11:40 PM
I ended up rejecting 12 of my favorite images in the culling process for cpp. I hated having to do it but when I went back and looked at my rejects I found some bad habits I never realized I had. I'm glad I had to reject them now.

My critique methods:
If I think an image will pass easily I generally have very little to say about it. If I feel an image won't pass I try to do my best to explain why.
If something can fix the image I try to explain how it's done.
I'm blunt. It saves time.

Pointers:
Check your highlights....if they're blown out it won't pass...simple as that.
Check your shadows...most should have at least some detail.
Is everyone is the picture lit the same?
Make sure the eyes are lit well and watch out for excessive reflections or too many catchlights.
Watch your cropping. Either leave plenty of room around your subject or make a statement with the tight crop. Don't crop right at the feet/head/hands etc...
Avoid wide angle shots that distort the subject's proportions.
Check and double check your color balance...nuf said.
Figure out which images are your strongest 4. Use them as image 1-2 and 19-20. Start strong, end strong.

Good luck :D

Joe_Galioto
01-01-2011, 02:27 AM
question
who should be giving critiques on the cpp submissions?
i was under the impression that there were certain judges that would be giving the critiques
. or can any cpp or master post coments
joe

GregYager
01-01-2011, 10:03 AM
I've asked this before and never got a clear answer. I think it was originally CPP liaisons but as you can see they've not done any so we've decided to help out and give these people some input. We remember all too well how frustrating it was to wait til the last minute for someone to critique 3-4 images at a time in the gallery.

I wouldn't imagine there would be any problem arising from any CPP or Master deciding to offer their help in there. It's obviously needed.

Keith_A_Howe
01-01-2011, 05:14 PM
As far as I know there was never a policy of CPP liaisons doing critiques. I have never seen a liaison from NE post anything on this forum anywhere. In fact I think D. Craig is the only CPP liaison I have ever seen on this forum. For a very short period of time they tried having certain people serve as "experts" on certain threads like certification, competition, lighting etc. Those experts had to moderate every post on those threads before they would be made public. What happened for example was somebody would post on say the competition thread where there were 2 or 3 "experts". Then if those experts didn't respond in a short time the original poster would get upset. The "experts" were all volunteer of course, yet they got basically yelled at by the very people they were volunteering to help, if they didn't help as fast as somebody thought they should. Or maybe sometimes an expert would have more free time on one day and would give a more in depth comment, then the next day they would be busy and could only post a few sentences. The person who got the shorter response would then complain that it wasn't fair. Also because just a couple people were labeled as experts on those threads, nobody else would ever post an opinion. Personally I thought it was a bad idea and I was glad when they did away with it.

Keith

GregYager
01-01-2011, 06:20 PM
That was truly an archaic system and I'm glad I didn't have to experience it.

The world is a faster place today than it was twenty years ago and we have to be able to keep up with that pace or we will surely be surpassed in the near future. There is more than just new studios popping up everywhere, there's new professional photographers associations as well. We have the choice to either make ours better each day or prepare for the gust of wind as the others pass us by. I'm putting my efforts into making this one better in any way I can which is why you will find my critiques in the cpp galleries. I don't want to explain to someone why no one wants to help them with improving their images.....for me it's easier to just offer my help and it usually takes less typing.

What I would like to see is a gallery that allowed people to upload 20 images that could be viewed as both a body of work(light table) and individually. This would be for more than just certification. It could be tied to the Find-A-Photographer page so potential clients could see a sampling of each photographer's work. The comments would only be viewable to other members though.

Howard_Kier
01-01-2011, 06:29 PM
I second Greg's comments. I remember my frustrations as I awaited having my photos critiqued. In some cases my photos were sitting there for several weeks before I received the first comment. Making matters worse, newer images were critiqued first.

BTW, I applied to be a CPP Liaison for Illinois. I awaiting the 2011 appointments to find out if I've been selected.

GregYager
01-01-2011, 06:34 PM
BTW, I applied to be a CPP Liaison for Illinois. I awaiting the 2011 appointments to find out if I've been selected.

That's great to hear Howard!!

Keith_A_Howe
01-01-2011, 11:10 PM
That was truly an archaic system and I'm glad I didn't have to experience it.

The world is a faster place today than it was twenty years ago and we have to be able to keep up with that pace or we will surely be surpassed in the near future.
Well that old system was started just in the last year not 20 years ago. I think it got dropped just a couple months before you started here. Intentions were good, to add value to this forum, but the outcome was not what the moderators were trying to achieve.

I don't give critiques in the CPP gallery because I am no longer certified. I let it drop years ago so I think it would be hypocritical for me to comment on a program I don't actively support. The only time I offer feedback for CPP images is when someone specifically asks for my input. Otherwise I feel it would be presumptuous of me. Too many people in our industry talk the talk without walking the walk. I don't want to be one of them.

Keith

GregYager
01-01-2011, 11:42 PM
Well that old system was started just in the last year not 20 years ago. I think it got dropped just a couple months before you started here. Intentions were good, to add value to this forum, but the outcome was not what the moderators were trying to achieve.

I don't give critiques in the CPP gallery because I am no longer certified. I let it drop years ago so I think it would be hypocritical for me to comment on a program I don't actively support. The only time I offer feedback for CPP images is when someone specifically asks for my input. Otherwise I feel it would be presumptuous of me. Too many people in our industry talk the talk without walking the walk. I don't want to be one of them.

Keith
Sounds like I came on board at the right time then.

I respect your standpoint on not critiquing CPP images unless asked. We have a wealth of members that are CPP certified that should be stepping up to the plate here though.

It stuns me that we have a membership list that's well over 20,000 but you only see a handful of them using the forums. I'm not certain what would need to be done to fix this but I put thought into it almost every day. I can see our competition as it rapidly grows each month and I ask myself if we can change fast enough to maintain our position as the premier photographer association or will we find ourselves falling behind. My participation here is an attempt to help us stay ahead. The more I think about it the more I realize this is probably a subject better covered in a different thread.

Joe_Galioto
01-02-2011, 01:13 AM
greg
i don't think it's broken
i can't imagine 20,000 photographers posting on the forum
who'd have time to sift through all that
it would become like my facebook, totally out of control

kieth, i don't critique the cpp submissions for the same reasons as you,
been many years since i stopped sending back the cpp paperwork & check.
joe

GregYager
01-02-2011, 01:55 AM
i don't think it's broken
i can't imagine 20,000 photographers posting on the forum
who'd have time to sift through all that
it would become like my facebook, totally out of control


I don't mean all 20,000 should be on here....grrrrrr
I just figured there would be more than what we currently see. There are currently only 3 or 4 people giving critiques to new candidates. You would think there would be more of us out there willing to do that.

Joe_Galioto
01-02-2011, 03:04 AM
Greg
Not everybody feels comfortable giving critiques
Joe

suebird
01-02-2011, 05:05 PM
"I don't give critiques in the CPP gallery because I am no longer certified. I let it drop years ago so I think it would be hypocritical for me to comment on a program I don't actively support. "

Can I play devil's advocate?

don't you think it is important to have open dialogue from all areas of the profession, CPP is one form of expertise, but there are many shooters who have equivalent expertise or knowledge from other areas of this profession, and I think it would be helpful to hear from them whether they are certified or not? Open up the ideas on imagery a little? The business is so subjective....what clients like, what editors like, producers, art buyers.....it is all subjective.

Yes there are core foundations, but really this industry is massive and we need to cross critique these days and be open to many ideas and opinions.....isn't that what a critique is about? For me, I see your images Keith and know instantly that I can learn a ton from your eye, perspective and career.....so I would not even be swayed a bit by not seeing CPP beside your name.

Keith_A_Howe
01-02-2011, 06:36 PM
"I don't give critiques in the CPP gallery because I am no longer certified. I let it drop years ago so I think it would be hypocritical for me to comment on a program I don't actively support. "

Can I play devil's advocate?

don't you think it is important to have open dialogue from all areas of the profession, CPP is one form of expertise, but there are many shooters who have equivalent expertise or knowledge from other areas of this profession, and I think it would be helpful to hear from them whether they are certified or not? Open up the ideas on imagery a little? The business is so subjective....what clients like, what editors like, producers, art buyers.....it is all subjective.

Yes there are core foundations, but really this industry is massive and we need to cross critique these days and be open to many ideas and opinions.....isn't that what a critique is about? For me, I see your images Keith and know instantly that I can learn a ton from your eye, perspective and career.....so I would not even be swayed a bit by not seeing CPP beside your name.


I don't know how to respond to this. I've retyped this post three times now. No matter what I say, I am going to come off as arrogant or defensive. I am the bad guy no matter what. All I can say is I do my share. CPP is not my responsibility. The people who are responsible are not participating here. They are the ones you should be addressing your comments to.

Remember, this is a thread about CPP. People who are asking for feedback here are trying to pass CPP submission. They are not looking for "open dialogue from all areas of the profession". They are looking for feedback from people who know what it takes to pass.

Keith

GregYager
01-02-2011, 09:26 PM
Suzanne,
Keith(and Holly) do their share when it comes to helping others with their craft. You will find an abundance of input from them in areas such as competition and business but they can't be the go-to people for everything. If they did that then nobody else would feel the need to help and the entire weight would be on their shoulders.

When you hear us talk about others that need to be helping we are referring to the CPP Liaisons and other CPPs. Each state has a number of these that have volunteered to help others in their quest for certification. You will eventually hear from some of them in here when they stop by to explain how busy they've been. The problem is that we have the wrong people volunteering for this. They mean well but they just don't have the time to get the job done. This is a common problem with most any job that involves volunteer work. It's easy to say "Hey, I'm just a volunteer. I do what I can but I can't make it a priority". I don't really consider this to be their "fault" but rather they are just not the right people for the job. We need to be recruiting people that are not only willing to do it but that are excited about doing it. That's what I was referring to when I was bickering with Joe about us having over 20,000+ members. With that many people to choose from I'm certain there are people out there that would be great at this job so we just need to find a way to get them here. I tried submitting an article about the forums to the PP magazine but my submission went unanswered so now I plan to use my time at Imaging to get the word out.

Some people say I'm beating a dead horse here but I say no, I'm performing CPR so pass me the paddles and watch this thing jump!

suebird
01-02-2011, 11:45 PM
Keith A. Howe
M.Photog.,M.Artist, Cr.,D,.F. Ph
For me, these are great reasons to listen you ;) your time devoted here is awesome!

Jeff_Dachowski
01-03-2011, 12:45 AM
fwiw,
I dont ever look at the CPP submissions. I am a CPP juror, and even though they are not identified, I want to give each submission its fair due. They are a lot of CPP's on this forum. Maybe they might find a bit of time to take a look.
Jeff

Howard_Kier
01-03-2011, 07:26 AM
Quite frankly until I was ready to recertify, I had no idea there was a need for volunteers. It wasn't until I was waiting for critiques to take place and I had a discussion with the head of the CPP program (his name escapes my memory just now), that I understood what was happening on the certification front. The problems with the Critique forum is but one small part of the problem. We have state liaisons who have not been doing their jobs. I received no support from my state rep. That is why I have started to step up. However, I didn't feel it was appropriate for me to take a bigger role until I had been notified I had recertified and didn't have images in the critique gallery. If you are certified I urge you to support the program by critiquing images and/or becoming a state liaison.

Cindi_K_McDaniel
01-03-2011, 04:42 PM
I have had a few people send me a link to their certification gallery and ask for my overall opinion of what they have submitted... This works much better for me as going through each and every image is sooooooo time consuming. If I'm able to look at the collection as a whole I can normally pinpoint any specific problem areas. Sometimes I wonder if we could do a better job by inviting this kind of private review because I would imagine that many people just don't want to put their submissions out in a public forum so they could possibly be ripped apart.

Mark_Levesque
01-03-2011, 08:46 PM
Hi Cindi-

The issue I have with private reviews is that only one person can possibly benefit from such a review, whereas public reviews provide all who view an opportunity for learning. Additionally, public reviews offer a chance for other qualified reviewers to offer their two cents, which makes the review more robust.

I also prefer a link to an online gallery of CPP images hosted elsewhere (not the gallery here, because the images are too small, load too slowly, and navigation is cumbersome at best.)

We've done quite a number of portfolio reviews on the CWSP forum. It's a good place to work on becoming certified.

Cindi_K_McDaniel
01-04-2011, 03:02 AM
I suppose you have a point there Mark... Although I still contend that not everyone wants to put themselves out there in a public forum so it's good to know a few of us offer private reviews :)

cpp_upload
01-08-2011, 06:56 AM
I have recently had a few photos critiqued online. I appreciate getting different points of view. I also have learn much by reading the critiques of others. I now study the uploaded photos of others and do my own critique before reading what the has been posted by other master and certified photographers. It has been a great learning experience for me.

Howard_Kier
01-08-2011, 06:51 PM
There is also a thread called "Passing Portfolios" which you can review to see what actually passed.

Heather_L._Smith
01-12-2011, 05:45 PM
Just as a side note, and I may actually put this on it's own thread, is to have those interested in a critique to upload the TWENTY images they're considering. For years we've had folks upload 30, 40, 50+ images wanting others to choose the best of the bunch, but that's not how the process should really work. Often times, if there are issues with a submission, commonly they are consistent issues, and to comment on 40 or 50 images from one request with common issues isn't the best use of time on the part of the folks providing the critiques.

I'd like to see folks choose what THEY think is the very best example of their work - TWENTY images that represents what they do best, and upload those. Then we can go from there to either swap out a few or start over from scratch. Make sense? Part of this process is having an unbiased opinion about your own work, and learning to see what is good and what is not in your images. Having a critique certainly helps you see things that you didn't see before, but you shouldn't use that as a crutch. Use it as a jumping off point to find those things in your images that need to be corrected and need to be improved. It will ultimately make you a better, more consistent photographer.

Keith_A_Howe
01-12-2011, 06:37 PM
but you shouldn't use that as a crutch. Use it as a jumping off point to find those things in your images that need to be corrected and need to be improved. It will ultimately make you a better, more consistent photographer.

Heather, I am so glad you said this. Shouldn't someone who is a certified professional photographer be able to determine what is acceptable and what is not? And if they can't recognize it for themselves, should they be certified?So I am always happy to help people, but I also try to scale back on that help as time goes by. My experience with this is more often on print comp then certification but it's the same thing. I am willing to hold someone's hand the first year, give them advise the second year, a little less the next year and so on. If somebody gets their Master's all on prints where they needed training wheels the whole time that's just not right. Don't get me wrong, I just got an email today, from someone very accomplished whom who I really respect and admire, that wants my help with their comp images. I am glad to bounce ideas off them, but I certainly won't give them as much help as I would want to with a beginner. He shouldn't need that much help and if he did then he shouldn't have the degrees that he does.

Keith

GregYager
01-12-2011, 08:33 PM
Shouldn't someone who is a certified professional photographer be able to determine what is acceptable and what is not? And if they can't recognize it for themselves, should they be certified?

Keith

I thinks Heather was referring to people working on becoming certified and not people that are already certified.

I wholeheartedly agree with the idea of keeping the numbers down though. I have an idea that may resolve this problem but it will take some time to work out the details. I plan to make that my project this year so we'll see how that goes.