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cpp_upload
10-18-2010, 09:16 PM
My photos were posted 10/4 for critique.

Photos before and after that post date have been critiqued but mine are still there without comments or critique.

What gives?

It's not fair and the deadline is this Friday.

Angela_Lawson
10-18-2010, 09:50 PM
I've been out of town for about a week, but will try to hop on again later tonight or tomorrow morning and help you out. Sorry for the delay!

GregYager
10-18-2010, 09:55 PM
You are justified in feeling this way and the list of reasons for why they haven't been critiqued is as long as the list of people qualified to do so.

The unavoidable fact is that it's done by volunteers. They review them in their spare time and we appreciate their efforts. The problem herein is with the many people who have volunteered to do this and have not done so.

Dwelling on that would be a moot point so I looked for an alternate path.

I too had 20 images posted and was lucky enough to have 10 critiqued. Oddly enough the critiques were scattered amongst the 20. I'm not sure what the thought process was there but I'm very grateful for the critiques I did receive.

My alternate path was to contact Master Photographers whose work I thought was truly great and I asked them to review my images. I asked 6 and got very insightful critiques from 2. The other 4 either didn't have the time or were part of the certification process in which case I asked them to not view my images as that could disqualify me.

There are people willing to extend a helping hand, you just have to find them.

What I ask you to do is please don't give up. Find someone directly and ask for help. Remember this experience and once you are qualified to do so join in the critique process. Help to make it a better experience for those who come after us. This is my plan and I'm sticking to it.

A few pointers....
Read the requirements and make sure you understand them all.
Make sure no 2 images are from the same event or session.
Submit images that represent what you shoot for clients.
Make sure proper lighting was used.
Check and double check your color balance.
Watch for blown highlights and shadows with no detail.
Do your best editing(acne, dark under eyes etc...)
Put your strongest images first and last.
Look at all images on one page and make sure everything looks "even and consistent"

In order to make it easy for the Masters willing to review my work I uploaded them to a blank page on my website as a photo gallery in the order I will be submitting them. I then gave them the link and asked them to tell me anything they could. Be prepared for a very honest critique. Take the advice and make the changes they recommend.

Good luck in the review and if you have any questions send me a private message and I'll help in any way I can.

Stan_Lawrence
10-19-2010, 12:44 AM
My photos were posted 10/4 for critique.

Photos before and after that post date have been critiqued but mine are still there without comments or critique.

What gives?

It's not fair and the deadline is this Friday.

I'd ask for an immediate refund....:cool:

GregYager
10-19-2010, 12:56 AM
Work with me here Stan:)

I think the problem can be resolved in time.

Speaking of which...would you be willing to take a look at mine?

You know how I am. Not afraid to ask and not afraid of the answer.

Stan_Lawrence
10-19-2010, 01:04 AM
Work with me here Stan:)

I think the problem can be resolved in time.

Speaking of which...would you be willing to take a look at mine?

You know how I am. Not afraid to ask and not afraid of the answer.

I'm not certified, and have no interest in it, so I'm likely not the best person to look at images for certification.....:cool:

GregYager
10-19-2010, 01:11 AM
Can't blame a guy for trying. Maybe somebody will come across this thread and decide to lend a hand though. I'll still bug you for advice though. :cool:

Stan_Lawrence
10-19-2010, 01:21 AM
Can't blame a guy for trying. Maybe somebody will come across this thread and decide to lend a hand though. I'll still bug you for advice though. :cool:

Greg, forum rules require an avatar with a sax in it to use the :cool:..... ;)

GregYager
10-19-2010, 01:29 AM
I needed that laugh. Thank you.:D

Zack_Davis
10-19-2010, 03:59 AM
I don't think this is so much a failure of the volunteers as it is a failure of the system (which is from my humble perspective broken).

The system seems to not be very simple, though it sounds so in practice I really don't think that the software being used is appropriate for this. Photo Post (the gallery plug-in for Vbulletin) is great for just that, a gallery where people can view at the leisure and post a quick CC or star rating. BUT, it's not made for a service in which the poster needs to remain anonymous for judging purposes and where there needs to be feedback (possibly quite in-depth) given to up to 20 images by each poster

I think the current software fails to meet the demands that the poster and the expected respondents place upon it. It's just leaving those looking for CC and those expected to give CC in bad places, mostly the ones expected to give CC getting yelled at and the ones wanting CC getting angry and yelling.

The gallery is just not flexible enough and I think that the gallery itself for the PPA site as well as the CPP CC process as a whole needs to be reconsidered. I think that as the PPA is now jumping into a process of "digitizing" image competition and image submissions they need to strongly consider the site itself. There's many other places on the internet at the moment for photographers to host their images each with their own pro's and con's but they work! It hink that a working PPA gallery would allow for forum members to each have the best of these website with their forum/organization membership.

A working gallery software would ideally allow someone to post an image in THEIR gallery (that is hosted on the PPA forum) and have an immediate option to post the image to the forum as a forum post as well with a secondary option to post the image to the forum anonymously. This would remove the need for any third party involvement to notify anyone of images being posted, increase forum traffic and also increase the number of people offering CC to image submissions. It could be even more advanced and include that forum posts are cross posted to the persons gallery.

This type of "software" doesn't exist though and even though I think it would be a benefit to both the PPA and it's members. Though I do know looking at the gallery right now it's far to cumbersome, to go through 20 or 40 or 60 images and offer CC on every image efficiently or effectively. I know too that at the moment 2/3's of the thumbnails in the PPA gallery are not linked and that really would make most users not even want to waste time attempting to view, comment or rate images.

I know this probably sounds harsh, I'm just trying to give an honest perspective with some helpful insight to those that CAN do something about it that is more than just saying it's junk and needs to be thrown out.

Keith_A_Howe
10-19-2010, 04:47 AM
Zack, I never go to the galleries becasue they are not user friendly. I don't know why they aren't but it sounds like you do. :D

Keith

GregYager
10-19-2010, 05:22 AM
I think the part that makes the situation even worse is the fact that it's spoken very highly of in the certification webinars. They talk about how great it is and how you can get in depth reviews from the people that know what it takes to get certified. They really get you pumped up about it and then WHAM, reality sets in and you realize it has so many problems that nobody bothers going there. Anyone can sign on under that user name and start deleting images at will. Actually they have to delete others in order to post theirs because the limit is usually exceeded. There are images in that member gallery from 2 years ago.

I agree with Zack that we should have a state of the art viewing gallery. We're the PPA for pete's sake! Shouldn't we be setting the bar in areas such as this?

Rick_Massarini
10-19-2010, 07:50 AM
My photos were posted 10/4 for critique.

Photos before and after that post date have been critiqued but mine are still there without comments or critique.

What gives?

It's not fair and the deadline is this Friday.

Hey everyone, did anyone bother to look at the name of the poster before commenting on the post????? I think Michael is having some fun with you here...

Zack_Davis
10-19-2010, 08:12 AM
Hey everyone, did anyone bother to look at the name of the poster before commenting on the post????? I think Michael is having some fun with you here...

I don't think this is joke, Michael may have posted it (as he does with all the CPP Uploads to keep them anonymous) but I don't think it was a joke at all. I know that there have been problems with the system and I know that the gallery (IMHO) has always been troublesome.

Betsy_Finn
10-19-2010, 03:06 PM
Anyone can sign on under that user name and start deleting images at will. Actually they have to delete others in order to post theirs because the limit is usually exceeded. There are images in that member gallery from 2 years ago.

I will admit this was a bit frustrating for me as well. I spent quite a bit of time writing critiques and suggestions for a series of images... to find the next day they had been deleted. While it theoretically was the image owner who deleted those, it might not have been. And it did frustrate me because I spent all that time providing constructive criticism, only to have the images disappear (along with my critiques).

That part seems counterproductive, especially when so many CPP candidates are sitting there asking "what makes an image worthy? What is an example of one that is/isn't?"

If the system Zack mentioned could be created, I think it would be beneficial to maintain a database of the already submitted images, so that candidates looking for clarification could see feedback on others' images.

While we're at it... why not feature some passing portfolios on the website? I know there are a ton of CPPs out there who still know which work they initially submitted. Seeing Marc B's portfolio was helpful for me when I got certified back in 2006... and I know for a while I tried to keep mine accessible so candidates could view it as well (change of websites incurred the loss of that gallery, sadly).

And I agree with Zack. This is not a joke. It is a legitimate complaint, with failed expectations on both sides -- both volunteer critiquers and CPP candidates are frustrated with the current system. It need to be improved, and fixed so that we can keep this valuable concept in place.

And I say concept because -- in theory, the critique submission would be wonderfully helpful for candidates, and very easy to use for all wanting to provide feedback. The candidates are willing to submit, as we have seen by the many images uploaded. The volunteer critiquers are willing to provide feedback, but the system doesn't currently provide a way for us to do that in an efficient and simple manner.

Rather than trying to fix something that's broke (i.e. was never intended for this purpose) -- I think it would be much better to request a new system that would fulfill needs on all sides.

Linda_Gregory
10-19-2010, 03:37 PM
Surely we have people in our PPA organization who could give ideas on a gallery configuration, possibly someone who would volunteer to work on it? We have the largest ever membership and they need instant education. They're not willing to wait for next month's local affiliate (if they still have one) for feedback.

Michael for years has wished there was more participation in the gallery section, let's listen, list the things we want, the things we don't want, ask what's possible in those lists and see where it can take us.

Stan_Lawrence
10-19-2010, 04:11 PM
We have the largest ever membership and they need instant education. They're not willing to wait for next month's local affiliate (if they still have one) for feedback.



Is that a sign of the times or what? I'm not sure instant education is really a need.... maybe it's become an expectation. Maybe the membership needs to be a little more resourceful and find that education instead of insisting on immediate gratification.... there are quite a few of us that learned at the next month's affiliate meeting, as well as the mentors we'd developed relationships with. Not picking on you, Linda, just wondering if maybe patience is a lost art....:cool:

Linda_Gregory
10-19-2010, 04:17 PM
It most assuredly is.

Locally, I am out in the cold. I am a traditionalist, insist on quality and have a studio. I don't want to waste my time going to a meeting with amateur photographers who don't have a clue to my needs yet our local affiliate folded a few years ago.

This all works to my advantage in marketing but I miss the camaraderie of other photographers in person. I do get it here.

We are billing this forum as a teaching tool but we're not living up to the expectations we've put out there with the gallery layout so we need to look at it and evaluate whether we should change the gallery or change how we present it's uses.

Keith_A_Howe
10-19-2010, 04:23 PM
just wondering if maybe patience is a lost art....:cool:

Yes.

Keith

GregYager
10-19-2010, 04:34 PM
Take it from the new guy here, there needs to be a change. Linda was close I just think she didn't use the right words to explain what she meant. It's not instant education we want, it's instant access to education that we want. We still learn by gathering information and applying it however gathering it shouldn't be the challenge.

Treating it like a quest and insisting we go find it is simply a selfish thought. We come here to learn and grow as photographers and we expect those opportunities to be here.

I thought state of the art systems would be in place when I first joined and I looked forward to learning all I could. I'm finding that the process is the toughest part.

I have spoke with the several of the people that posted concerns under the anonymous "user_upload" name and it's no joke. Many feel like they've been ripped off. I urged them to work through the kinks, get certified and become a part of the solution.

I am submitting my images this week and will be taking my written exam on Sunday. My question is, once I get past those hurdles is there anything I can do to help?

GregYager
10-19-2010, 04:45 PM
Patience is not a lost art with everyone. Patience has it's time and place. The need for patience with this broken system is in the wrong time and place.

This is the equivalent of going to college and paying your tuition then they say "There's the door. Go find an education"

We don't expect instant qualification. We expect instant access to the things that will make us qualified.

I realize it was a very long road for some of you. It doesn't have to be any more. It can be more efficient. Not easier, just easier to access. It can fit today's standards. It should fit today's standards. No knowledge is gained by keeping the process a maze.

KirkDarling
10-19-2010, 04:51 PM
While we're at it... why not feature some passing portfolios on the website? I know there are a ton of CPPs out there who still know which work they initially submitted. Seeing Marc B's portfolio was helpful for me when I got certified back in 2006... and I know for a while I tried to keep mine accessible so candidates could view it as well (change of websites incurred the loss of that gallery, sadly).

I think this is a grand idea, and something commission members should take up each year, with permission from the owners of the passing portfolios. The current gallery could probably be shoehorned into this use without building anything new.

GregYager
10-19-2010, 05:01 PM
It would have been a huge bonus to have been able to see previous passing portfolios. I'm a visual person that learns a lot from just seeing.

If mine passes I will gladly post it along with the official critiques I receive during the review both good and bad so others can learn from it.

Stan_Lawrence
10-19-2010, 05:24 PM
Take it from the new guy here, there needs to be a change. Linda was close I just think she didn't use the right words to explain what she meant. It's not instant education we want, it's instant access to education that we want. We still learn by gathering information and applying it however gathering it shouldn't be the challenge.

Treating it like a quest and insisting we go find it is simply a selfish thought. We come here to learn and grow as photographers and we expect those opportunities to be here.



Greg, it really is a quest, and it's actually the opposite of selfish. Folks need to learn how to fish, having the mackerel dropped in their lap is counter productive. You're the perfect example, you go after the education, you're not sitting around waiting for it. Instant access isn't necessarily the best way to go. I had to go out and get it, as did a lot of the "old timers" here. We've been at it a long time, and the way we started has a lot to do with why we're still here. I respectfully disagree, gathering it should be a challenge. That's part of the education. I found folks to help me when I got started, some were close by, some far away. I made my mistakes (way more than I like to think about) and I learned from them. It's a good process, it builds character. As we all know, there are a lot of characters here....;) My feeling is we need to be ready to roll up our sleeves, with the only expectation being hard work.....:cool:

GregYager
10-19-2010, 06:02 PM
I completely understand where you're coming from Stan in regards to the need for it to be challenging. I'm just saying the challenges are in the wrong places when it comes to the subject of getting certified. I'll use your analogy to explain.

You say it's better to learn to fish rather than have the mackerel thrown in our lap. Great learning lesson if you want to be a fisherman but here we're looking to be the cook. We want to learn how to make the tastiest mackerel you've ever had.

To be honest learning opportunities are all around me now that I've become a PPA member and I'm enjoying every minute of it. The only shortfall I've come across is the process of having images reviewed through the galleries here.

I really feel the need to clear that up because to be honest I am 100% satisfied with everything else.

I saw the problem with the galleries as soon as I arrived and decided to seek out people that I felt I not only liked their work but I could respect their opinion. That has been a quest and will continue to be a quest for me. It is a great learning process. I have had my submissions reviewed in detail. I've heard both good and bad but what they all had in common was honesty and a willingness to help. I am in debt to them for that.

What I would like to see come out of this is a sleek state of the art viewing gallery that makes viewing the images a pleasant experience. The education doesn't need to be easier or faster. If anything it could almost use to be a bit tougher. I think the technology for a nicer and more user friendly gallery is out there we just need someone to volunteer to find it. (not mentioning any names Zack)

I love photography. I love seeing other peoples work. I love being able to share mine when I get something I think is good. I would like to see some friendly online competitions. This would even help familiarize new people with the judging and merit process.

As Linda would say...Am I clear as mud yet?

Rick_Massarini
10-19-2010, 06:10 PM
I have spoke with the several of the people that posted concerns under the anonymous "user_upload" name and it's no joke. Many feel like they've been ripped off.

If the "user_upload" name is actually an anonymous posting method that just bears Mchael's name, then I misunderstood. My apology - Sorry.
I read in the header - "user_upload" Real name Michael Gan - so I assumed that Michael had posted it. It didn't make sense that he would post a complaint on the forum about being mad about not receiving voluntary free critiques from the forum membership when he is a forum moderator, is on the PPA Board, is a CPP Liason, and, I believe, a part of the certification committee. If he really needs something fixed in the Gallery, I'm sure he has the ability to push the resources in the proper direction to get it fixed instead of posting a complaint to the forum membership. I just figured that he was yanking your chain.

Anyway, my personal opinion is this - no one should be miffed about not receiving a critique on images posted on the forum for any reason. If you get one, great - if you can't get one, hey, that's life! We are all working photographers here, and we all have studios to run - you have to make a living FIRST. Time spent on the forum is time away from our businesses, so anything that you receive here regarding free education should be regarded as a gift from the person doing the critique instead of something that one is entitled to or something that another member is required to do - remember that the next time you receive a full page of image critiques by someone like Keith. Figure how much time it would have taken for you to analyze the images and write the critiques, figure that at (at least) $100/hour and consider the critique a gift worth that much money. Comments are quick and take no time nor thought. Good constructive critiques take time to write. I have seen jurors study certain prints for a good while before starting to give their video critiques. Also - this forum is a great resource, but it is not your only resource. You can also network with your local photographers, Masters, or CPP's, at your local affiliate association meetings. We had a local guild meeting just last night, and some members brought images for others and our speaker to critique. Local networking can be invaluable, so get involved with your local affiliate. JMHO.

Betsy_Finn
10-19-2010, 06:25 PM
Anyway, my personal opinion is this - no one should be miffed about not receiving a critique on images posted on the forum for any reason. If you get one, great - if you can't get one, hey, that's life! We are all working photographers here, and we all have studios to run - you have to make a living FIRST. Time spent on the forum is time away from our businesses, so anything that you receive here regarding free education should be regarded as a gift from the person doing the critique instead of something that one is entitled to or something that another member is required to do - remember that the next time you receive a full page of image critiques by someone like Keith. Figure how much time it would have taken for you to analyze the images and write the critiques, figure that at (at least) $100/hour and consider the critique a gift worth that much money.

Rick, your opinion is valid, and accurate in my opinion. But the problem is perception. As was mentioned earlier, certification classes are *telling* people to come here to get critique. PPCC is promoting it, and the whole "certify with Sandy Puc'" is also promoting it as a place to get your images critiqued. With that many resources telling you to come and post your images here, it is understandable for these CPP candidates to be miffed when they follow the instructor's advice... but get no feedback.

That is the problem. The certification gallery was pushed past its capabilities, and now it is being promoted as "the place" to get feedback on your images. Not the place where you post your images and you "might get feedback. If that was the case, the candidates would probably agree with you too.

But it's not. Other venues that "help you get certified" have said this is the place to come if you want your images critiqued. So candidates come, expecting prompt critique. Those venues didn't discuss the fact that critiques are done by volunteers with not enough time, working with an antiquated system. They just promoted the "instant feedback" aspect of the certification gallery. So.... understandably, candidates are miffed.

They were promised something (over-promised? maybe.)

They didn't receive what was promised.

They are upset.

And from their perspective, their anger/frustration is certainly justifiable. This is the problem. We have two different categories of people involved. The volunteers who use up what little spare time they have to provide critiques (who are frustrated with the inefficiency of the system)... and the candidates who were promised something and their only complaint is that they are not receiving what was promised to them.

Neither side is happy. And the only solution I see is to replace the gallery (as it stands now) with a more efficient online critique system.

Rick_Massarini
10-19-2010, 07:28 PM
If those promoting certification are promoting this forum as being THE place to get critiques, then they should dedicate some of their own time to posting critiques on the forum and not expect the few (those who give of themselves by taking the time out of their workday to provide feedback) to do it all for them... JMO

GregYager
10-19-2010, 09:03 PM
Amen Rick! I would add more to that but where I come from that says it all.

Angela_Lawson
10-19-2010, 09:57 PM
Just for the sake of reference - I just spent the last 4 hours going thru and looking at every single image that was posted in the certification gallery section. I tried to make a point of commenting on any that didn't have any comments at all, and tried to give good and bad comments, instead of just ratings to those images that I commented on. That's a long time out of a busy day, but since we as CPP's are committed to helping those who would like to achieve that status, and many are not getting what they hoped for in the galleries, I felt it was necessary. I hope that it will be of help to all those who have posted images, and if you would like to discuss any comments that I made further, feel free to email me or PM me.

GregYager
10-19-2010, 10:17 PM
On behalf of everyone that has posted images there I would like to say thank you Angela.

Wouldn't it be nice if the galleries were set up more user friendly on both sides?

I think it would be great if you could view them as individual galleries similar to the way they will be judged. What I mean is all 20 images as thumbnails on one page so you can see it as a body of work and then click on each image to enlarge it and post the review. The concept seems simple to me but I'm not a programmer so I really have no idea what would entail making this a reality. I just know it would be really cool.

Stan_Lawrence
10-19-2010, 10:30 PM
They were promised something (over-promised? maybe.)

They didn't receive what was promised.

They are upset.

And from their perspective, their anger/frustration is certainly justifiable.

It might be, if it was directed at the folks that promised something someone else might deliver.... Over promised would seem to be accurate, and if they are upset, I think it would be at the folks making the promises. :cool:

Angela_Lawson
10-20-2010, 04:10 AM
On behalf of everyone that has posted images there I would like to say thank you Angela.

Wouldn't it be nice if the galleries were set up more user friendly on both sides?

I think it would be great if you could view them as individual galleries similar to the way they will be judged. What I mean is all 20 images as thumbnails on one page so you can see it as a body of work and then click on each image to enlarge it and post the review. The concept seems simple to me but I'm not a programmer so I really have no idea what would entail making this a reality. I just know it would be really cool.

I agree Greg. That would have made it a little easier. Also, I know that many people submit more than 20 for critique in order to narrow it down, but if it was set up in individual galleries, they could then just pull one down and replace it as needed, instead of submitting multiple images of same subject, were it's hard for the comment makers to move backward and foreward to compare the images. But, I'm not a programmer either, so I think maybe we need to put a bug into PPA's ear about finding a programmer that could put something together based on the comments of those of us who use it.

Zack_Davis
10-20-2010, 05:47 AM
But, I'm not a programmer either, so I think maybe we need to put a bug into PPA's ear about finding a programmer that could put something together based on the comments of those of us who use it.

That's my hope and goal with my post Angela, I understand the organization is massive and that some times not all the cogs turn the wheels very well. But I think that this entire site (with focus on the forum section) could have some great visual and functional improvements. Hopefully they'll consider this if/when they make any changes in the future.

RBrogen
10-29-2010, 09:21 PM
Another option to have your images reviewed is to contact your local CPP Liaison directly and I'm sure they would be happy to assist. You can find your local liaison on the certifiedphotographer.com website. Here's a direct link to the list CPP LIAISONS (http://www.certifiedphotographer.com/images/uploads/Certification%20Liaisons.pdf).

cpp_upload
10-29-2010, 10:21 PM
Another option to have your images reviewed is to contact your local CPP Liaison directly and I'm sure they would be happy to assist. You can find your local liaison on the certifiedphotographer.com website. Here's a direct link to the list CPP LIAISONS.

I did send my images to my liason and ask for feedback. He didn't do a thing and weeks later, I've still not heard a word from him. As there is only one liason in my state, I was left to fend for myself.

RBrogen
10-29-2010, 11:19 PM
I apologize on behalf of all liaisons because I can assure you that we as a group feel that this is part of our responsibility. If you would like to PM me I would be happy to look at your images and also provide you with alternative contacts for future liaison questions. Also if you feel that you are not receiving the support from a liaison contact, please contact the commission by using one of the methods below:

Email: PPCC@certifiedphotographer.com
Phone: 1-888-772-2780

Jeff_Dachowski
10-30-2010, 01:57 AM
Randy,
Good to see you here!
Jeff

RBrogen
10-30-2010, 02:34 AM
Hey Jeff,

Right back at ya bud! I've been wicked swamped but wanted to get reconnected to the forums. You going to be at district next year on the cape?

Randy

Jeff_Dachowski
10-30-2010, 03:54 AM
Hey Jeff,

Right back at ya bud! I've been wicked swamped but wanted to get reconnected to the forums. You going to be at district next year on the cape?

Randy
Hi Randy,
Yes, I am not judging it, but will probably be helping out of Print Crew for Lorraine B.
Jeff

Rick_Massarini
10-30-2010, 05:09 AM
hijack alert ... everybody other than Jeff - please skip over this post ...

Jeff,
Thanks for being part of the Regional Print Crew...
You just don't know how much that is appreciated, if never voiced... the people behind the scenes really appreciate it...

Hey, if you're a dedicated volunteer... we need to sign you up for the National Judging in June...
R U Interested ??? Hey, We can always use another body... especially a dedicated one - and you sound like a really good candidate...!!! Love to have ya'...

Betsy_Finn
11-01-2010, 02:01 PM
You may want to notify PPCC about your issues with the particular liaison you are mentioning... since I would think the liaison should at *least* have responded to your message even if he/she didn't have time to review your images.

Missy50
11-01-2010, 03:03 PM
I did not upload any photos to submit. I have had a busy fall and spent my time studying for the written. I did pop in to see what the judges were looking for as far as submitting the 20. (I am sure this has been covered, there are 3 pages of posts and I have not read them all. I may have even posted.) However, something I observed on many of the comments to the images were more for competition and not cpp. As I understand it, a different set of rules. Similar, close, but different. It got a little confusing.

Perhaps in the future, in order to save time, for the candidate and the critiquer, who is donating their time, focus strictly on the elements for CPP. Give the image a scale of 1-5 or 1-10. And if giving it a low mark, give a reason why. Composition, lighting, photoshop, etc and move on to the next image. If giving it a high mark, make no comment. As I understand for photos for CPP, the judges are looking for images "by the book" that have been made for paying clients. They are looking for proper lighting, ratios, compositions, color and the proper use of black & white. Salable images. That is really all that needs to be commented on. If the individual wants to enter the image in competition, then they can resubmit the image for cc for 12E of competition.

GregYager
11-01-2010, 04:21 PM
The entire certification process could use a good updating. Let's face it, we pay money to become certified. We should therefore have clear and concise instruction on the process. Simply referring candidates to a book that covers many subjects that are not even on the test isn't enough. Then having an image review gallery that's archaic and seldom viewed is quite frankly discouraging. I ended up going outside the system and directly to other photographers for advice on becoming certified. It just makes me wonder what the $100 candidacy fee was for. I'm assuming it was so a volunteer could proctor my exam and volunteers could critique my images. Our goal as members of the PPA is to deliver the highest quality images to the photographic market. We should expect that same quality from our own organization.

A few suggestions that I think could help:

1. When a person declares their candidacy they should be given access to webinars and written instruction on becoming a CPP. Including but not limited to:
a. What judges are looking for in your portfolio.
b. How to present your images with consistent color and proper placement.
c. Subject matter best suited for submission.
d. Sample critiques of passing and failing portfolios.
e. General photography techniques and knowledge items that are covered in the exam.

2. Practice exams that are more than 10 questions long. Something that will actually test the candidates progress as they prepare for the exam.

3. Image review galleries that mirror what is used for certification. The candidate could upload 20 images that can be viewed at one time as a body of work then each image could be enlarged for critique. Establish a universal ranking system for quick reviews requiring less to be written by the reviewer.

4. Encourage liaisons to be active in the process. The list of liaisons is very long but only a handful are here accomplishing the task. Find people that don't mind taking the time to help others as opposed to people that spend a lot of time with explaining how they're too busy. If need be hire a consultant to work from home whose job is to critique portfolios and offer advice to candidates. I've been told it is a daunting task to review the portfolios because there are so many. Well that also means a lot of $100 fees have been collected as well so surely there could be a way to channel some of that money into making the certification process a bit more viable.

I'm not mad about the current process but rather disappointed with it's inadequacy. It has the potential to be something great. It's just not at the moment which I think is part of why so many people simply don't bother with it.

Ok, would someone like to borrow my soap box? :D

Keith_A_Howe
11-01-2010, 07:48 PM
Greg, It sounds like you want it made easier? Something like follow these steps exactly and you will be a CPP? Isn't that kinda like buying the designation? I'm sorry but when people complain about not getting it spoon fed it comes off like they aren't willing to do the work. What value is the designation if it's so easy to get?

The $100 cost? I am sure PPA has a whole bunch of behind the scenes costs for certification just like we have behind the scenes costs taht our clients aren't aware of. The gallery on this forum is not something that is owed to CPP canidates. That's just one member helping out another. If someone called me at my studio asking for advice, I may or may not have time to help them but I don't owe help to them. It's the same thing with CPP applicants. It's nice if somebody can give them a helping hand but it's not something that is owed to them. This forum (and the potetial for getting advice before submitting) is about 5 years old. The CPP program has been around about 30 years. So the majority of CPP's got there without a venue to get feedback on images.

Keith

Rick_Massarini
11-01-2010, 08:17 PM
It just makes me wonder what the $100 candidacy fee was for. I'm assuming it was so a volunteer could proctor my exam and volunteers could critique my images.

I don't understand why you would think that the $100 had anything to do with the volunteers critiquing the images or proctoring the exams - since they are volunteers - they don't get paid for what they do - it's voluntary ...

RBrogen
11-01-2010, 08:17 PM
I agree with Keith. While the existing process is not 100% infalable, it is a time tested process that provides the platform with which professionals can put their experience and craft to the test to earn the CPP certification. I will also say that the folks who manage the program are always open to suggestions for improvement. I know first hand as some of my suggestions have already been implemented. That also being said, the program is also not an education program, it is a testing program. The entire point of the program is to test your existing knowledge of our craft not to say okay read pages 10-200 and you'll pass the exam.

This isn't a pay a fee and follow step 1-2-3 you are a CPP process. The fee you are charged when you declare your candidacy is not paying for your certification, it is paying for the program to which you are going to undertake to become certified. Similar to an educational institution degree, you have to pay the tuition that covers books, salaries of teachers, research materials etc. but it doesn't mean you are handed a degree after you pay, you still have to earn it. Additionally, just because someone critques your images, does not mean that the reviewing judges will see the images in the same way. Remember, we are in a very subjective field but there are some general dos and don'ts that you must be aware of.

It seems that your first experience with the liaison in your area was not what we would have hoped but I assure you if you followup with the program directors that they will make any necessary adjustments.

Missy50
11-01-2010, 09:07 PM
BTW, as I understand it, CPP is not really PPA, but if you are a PPA or SEPA (I think I got that right) member, the fee for CPP is $100.00. If not, it is $500.00. Big savings for being a PPA member.

Edited to add, we do appreciate the volunteer hours that go into helping with CPP and the Competitions. And you have to run your businesses as well.

GregYager
11-01-2010, 09:48 PM
No I don't want it easier but I guess it could be read like that. A clear description of the end goal would be nice though. Definitely not looking for anything to be "spoon fed" to me either. You guys know based on personal contact from me that I seek out information, accept critique and learn from it. I don't wait for things to happen but instead I do the leg work and find the answers.

Keith, we both know that just because people had it even harder years ago it doesn't have to be that way now. I'm not thinking the standards need to be easier but access to the knowledge could do some catching up.

This analogy may help describe my view. Years ago people had to walk to school(uphill both ways) but eventually they started using buses. More time could be spent on education and less on transportation so education improved. Now many classes are done online eliminating the commute altogether so even more time can be spent on the education and none on the transportation. Sometimes the journey has nothing to do with the end goal so easing the journey part frees up time for the knowledge part. It's just a necessary evil that must be overcome in order to achieve the goal.

Just to keep things straight I'm not the one that started this thread but because I was going through the certification process at the same time I could relate to the frustration they were feeling. When I first looked into getting certified it was rather confusing to me. I felt like I had walked into a Biology class, the teacher said go learn Biology and there will be a test when your done, class dismissed. Ok, so that's a humorous exaggeration but you know what I mean.

We all know the galleries for reviewing the images need a makeover and everyone here has said so, so I'll leave that one alone for a bit because I think they're actually looking into that issue.

Now for the twist. As for the standards of becoming certified I actually think they could use to be a bit harder. I was thinking this while I was taking the test in Springfield. It occurred to me that a "hands on" test would be a good way to test a person's knowledge and skills. Now I know this isn't feasible at the time but I wanted to share that so you had a better idea of where my thought process is going.

What I'm hoping comes out of this debate is that people read it and step up to the plate to help. It seems to be working as I'm noticing more and more people becoming involved.

When I mentioned the $100 Rick I was just brainstorming on where money might come from to acquire someone whose job was to give critiques so it didn't have to be a favor but rather a benefit of being in the program. I know I felt bad having to ask you guys for help because I knew you had a business to run but if I was gonna pass I had to. You gave me incredible advice and made it easier for me but there's a lot of people out there that couldn't find someone. Another idea would be to have 2-3 people on staff as coaches and they charged for the service. People that had the knowledge but didn't have a studio they had to tend to on a daily basis. These are just thoughts like I said.

I have received an immense amount of help from members here and I am very grateful for that but I think if we put our minds to it we could make the certification program more of a learning process and less of a testing process which I think would make us better as a whole.

Am I making any sense or do I have you guys scratching your heads thinking I'm crazy?

Howard_Kier
11-01-2010, 11:22 PM
In looking through the images submitted for critique, it was fairly obvious there was a reviewer who normally judges competitions. They were using competition critiques for the certification images. That by itself is not a big problem. The problem occurs when the candidate is not able to determine if the photo will meet the criteria to pass as a certified image. I was lambasted for my comment before, but I still stand by it. Certification images need to be client worthy (salable) and not necessarily competition, loan collection worthy.

Of course it is fairly obvious an images will not pass muster when it was not properly color corrected or is out of focus. One specific image from the last go round comes to mind. It was a tilted church. Personally, I thought it was an effective image. It was in focus, properly exposed and nicely color corrected. The comment which was raised was "The judges will wonder why the image is tilted" Great, but that does not tell the maker if the image is strong enough for a passing portfolio.

Michael_Gan
11-02-2010, 12:41 AM
Please understand that PPCC is a certifying body only. It has NO responsibility for the education of the candidates. There is no "official" study material and there are no official guidelines for how you should submit your images.

In fact, if a candidate practices good sound professional photography, they should be able to pass without studying. It used to be that you had to be a practicing pro for at least two years before entering the certification process. That requirement had to be dropped.

All these "learning materials" and critiques are outside of the scope of the certification commission. The learning part is volunteered by photographers who believe in the certification process. They just happened to mostly be PPA members. PPA does believe very strongly in Certification, but that is all. There is no other connection any more between the two.

PPA members do get a break in certification by way of a $100 application process and you pay $50 per year for the next 4 years, whereas, a non-member pays $500 up front to cover all 4 years in advance.

Bottom line is, don't put more responsibility into the candidates' passing of certification. It's not the responsibility of the commission on whether you pass OR fail, it is merely there to administer the certification process that is in accordance to the ICE (formerly NOCA) standards.

Keith_A_Howe
11-02-2010, 01:29 AM
In looking through the images submitted for critique, it was fairly obvious there was a reviewer who normally judges competitions. They were using competition critiques for the certification images.

Because I am one of the very few approved jurors that regularly participates here I just want to say that it was not me. I have not critiqued any images in the CPP gallery recently and I certainly am aware that CPP standards are no where near competition standards. So if I were to critique CPP images I would not use merit quality work as my measuring stick. That being said, I haven't read the critiques either but could it be the reviewer is just using the same terminology and really isn't expecting competition quality? I don't know if thats the case but if you are used to talking about images in terms of the 12 elements it would be resonable to expect some of the same phrases to be used when talking about CPP images.

Keith

GregYager
11-02-2010, 01:42 AM
You know the more we discuss this the more I realize there's a void here that someone with a little business savy could fill and make a good chunk of change. A PPA approved school that teaches everything from basics to competition. I know there's colleges and online courses but if I was looking for a course or coach I would choose a PPA course over an independant one. Anyone else think this is a viable thought?

Jeff_Dachowski
11-02-2010, 01:45 AM
I know there's colleges and online courses but if I was looking for a course or coach I would choose a PPA course over an independant one. Anyone else think this is a viable thought?

It would not surprise me if something is in the works.
Jeff

Rick_Massarini
11-02-2010, 02:50 AM
I'm probably the person who some people are pointing fingers at indirectly. When I read that some people were looking for critiques on their images, I had a few hours free so I went into the gallery and gave my opinion on some images - just to help out. And YES, I used the same terminology that I would use if I were looking at any other image and did mention where I would place the image regarding score. I figured a critique is a critique, so if I said I would place the image in the Excellent category with a score of 87, that would sort of indicate that it might be a passable image for a CPP entry. If I said that this image would not be of exhibition quality, or that I would just barely score this print a 70, then that might be considered a red flag for that image. I'm sorry if my terminology was not what the reader might have been expecting - but hey, they didn't pay me for my time, so they have no room to complain. I agree with Keith - I don't believe that people need to be spoon fed - and I believe that they should be grateful for whatever assistance anyone gives them - instead of complaining that the help that was given to them free of charge wasn't EXACTLY what they wanted. And if they wanted more information, then all they had to do was send me a PM, since my name was on the signature of the critique. If you want something - ask for it directly, and you will probably get it - complain on the forum, and you won't!!!

I'm probably going to tick a few people off with my next comment, but what the heck ... The very concept that a candidate for the title of CPP would actually EXPECT someone to tell them - a Professional Photographer and business person who is looking to become a CERTIFIED Professional Photographer - which of their images are of acceptable professional quality - is ludicrous. Hey, if you don't know if your work is of acceptable professional quality, then you don't know enough about photography to consider yourself qualified to be called CERTIFIED - Just my opinion, of course. Now if you are a student, then it's another thing altogether, but I still thought you had to be a working, practicing professional photographer to qualify for certification - but that may have changed...

I have, over the course of the last couple of years, had people on the forum and some PPLA member photographers who were going for their CPP, send me their images for comment, and I have always complied with their requests and assisted them in every way that I could. But for someone to complain on a forum that volunteers did not tell them which images to send in and which ones not to send in is a personal condemnation of their own personal judgemental abilities. If you are a PRO, then you should know what (of your own work) is good and what is bad, so get someone's opinion on your images and make your own decision as to which images to send in - after all, it's YOU who are looking for that CPP title - if you're going to be a CERTIFIED Professional Photographer, you should know enough to be able to tell which of your own images are good and which aren't of presentable professional quality. After all, for the CPP, they are only looking for 20 images that show that your work is of Professional Quaity Level - that means that they just need to score in the middle 70's.... And if you can't find 20 prints in last year's work that will score in the mid 70's... and if you can't tell that they will score at least in the mid 70's... well...
Maybe our culture is just making things just a little bit too easy for some people...

From now on, I won't comment on any images in the Gallery unless asked. So that just reduces the number of commentators by one - down here, that's called "Cutting off your nose to spite your face"...

Rick_Massarini
11-02-2010, 02:58 AM
You know the more we discuss this the more I realize there's a void here that someone with a little business savy could fill and make a good chunk of change. A PPA approved school that teaches everything from basics to competition. I know there's colleges and online courses but if I was looking for a course or coach I would choose a PPA course over an independant one. Anyone else think this is a viable thought?

There are several people out there who are teaching three day CPP Courses with the exam being given on the fourth day. PPLA is planning on hosting one of these classes for our members next February. We will be bringing in a top notch instructor and PPLA will also be subsidizing some of the costs of the class to make it available for more of our members at a more reasonable cost to our PPLA members - just another reason to join your state and local PPA Affiliate associations...

GregYager
11-02-2010, 03:20 AM
Rick, I didn't see the reviews you gave in the galleries but the review you gave on my images seemed to be purely cpp. You referred to competition standards only as a point of reference so I'm not sure yours would have been taken that way unless they misread you.

I know about the cpp prep class which is a good thing but the idea rolling around in my head is more like hiring a personal photography coach. Some coaches are for new shooters just starting out. Some coaches teach competition shooting. Maybe I'm just trying to create employment for myself when I get too old to shoot. :)

Rick_Massarini
11-02-2010, 03:30 AM
You never get too old to shoot... most of us they'll plant with a camera in our hands...

Keith_A_Howe
11-02-2010, 04:08 AM
Guys, don't tell anyone but I have applied for a patent on a tripod that doubles as a walker. I am also working on a tripod mount that attatches to a Scooter or a Hoveround. The upgrade will feature a hydralic lift for the tripod head and a built in catheter in case it's needed. I am planning to have retired Playboy Bunnies in nurses uniforms as my spokesmodels. I just trying to get an AARP stamp of approval.
Keith

Rick_Massarini
11-02-2010, 04:15 AM
Let me know when you plan your IPO for stock in your new company - I may want to invest in that...

GregYager
11-02-2010, 04:39 AM
PThere is no "official" study material and there are no official guidelines for how you should submit your images.



This is probably the part that caught me off guard the most when I first arrived here as a new member.

To become certified you have to pay a fee for the right to take a test that has no official study materials and pass a review that has no official guidelines. Am I the only one that sees this as a bit odd? I realize it's been this way for many years but that just makes me ask why didn't someone see this as odd before?

I took the test and felt it was mostly common knowledge even though much of it was still out dated to me. Fortunately I found the Certify with Sandy site that gave me a rough idea of what the test was about so I had time to brush up on some of my old school techniques.

I actually learned a lot when it came to putting my image submission together thanks to several photographers that were willing to give my work a once over. They found flaws in my work that I had never seen as flaws before. I honestly think the work I'm producing today is markedly better than the work I produced 2 months ago thanks to this. This is what led me to the idea that establishing shooting standards and then teaching them could be very beneficial to the organization as a whole. This would be a program that photographers would pay for and see an immediate benefit by shooting better images that are worth more.

I see this as a possible source of revenue as well as another benefit to add to the list of becoming a member.

I guess you could say I'm not mad like the original poster but rather I see an opportunity here.

GregYager
11-02-2010, 04:41 AM
Guys, don't tell anyone but I have applied for a patent on a tripod that doubles as a walker. I am also working on a tripod mount that attatches to a Scooter or a Hoveround. The upgrade will feature a hydralic lift for the tripod head and a built in catheter in case it's needed. I am planning to have retired Playboy Bunnies in nurses uniforms as my spokesmodels. I just trying to get an AARP stamp of approval.
Keith

Now ya got me rollin on the freakin floor dude!!!!

Michael_Gan
11-02-2010, 06:21 AM
To become certified you have to pay a fee for the right to take a test that has no official study materials and pass a review that has no official guidelines. Am I the only one that sees this as a bit odd? I realize it's been this way for many years but that just makes me ask why didn't someone see this as odd before?Well, let's think logically about this. Are there any other certification programs that provide education and training? Not one, and that's because they're really not allowed to.

GregYager
11-02-2010, 06:30 AM
Well, let's think logically about this. Are there any other certification programs that provide education and training? Not one, and that's because they're really not allowed to.

Actually yes there are many. I'm a Certified Emergency Medical Technician and I had to complete a course of instruction, then take a written and hands on test. I'm currently enrolled as a Paramedic student and to become certified and get my Paramedic license I have to complete a course of instruction, then pass a written and hands on exam prior to my internship. When I became a certified real estate agent I had to complete a course of instruction then pass a written exam. To be honest every certification I can think of requires a course of instruction prior to testing. The part that they all have in common is there are pass/fail standards established for them. In the case of becoming a Certified Professional Photographer there are no defined pass/fail standards that can be taught if I read your post right when you said none existed.

What certification is available without education?

Rick_Massarini
11-02-2010, 06:45 AM
It's always been well published that the recommended book to study for the CPP has been "Photography by London and Upton" (It might just by London now) - so that might be "considered" the "study guide" per se'. I bought one of the issues a bunch of years back, and everything in the book seemed to be really rudimentary - if you were a working pro, nothing in the book was really new information that you didn't already know.

Also - about Keith's ideas... you really know you're getting old when the idea of a tripod that doubles as a walker sounds like a really good idea...

GregYager
11-02-2010, 06:55 AM
It's always been well published that the recommended book to study for the CPP has been "Photography by London and Upton" (It might just by London now) - so that might be "considered" the "study guide" per se'. I bought one of the issues a bunch of years back, and everything in the book seemed to be really rudimentary - if you were a working pro, nothing in the book was really new information that you didn't already know.

Also - about Keith's ideas... you really know you're getting old when the idea of a tripod that doubles as a walker sounds like a really good idea...

The written test was rudimentary and yes a working pro should be able to pass it. I obviously can't give specific points about it but there was a few places where math was required to come up with the answer but in real life the answer would be "re-meter".

My issue isn't a complaint remember but rather an idea. An idea based on how much I learned from good thorough critiques of my work. If I learned that much through that just imagine the potential of a program based on such a thing.

Keith's not getting old btw...he's getting inventive out of necessity :D

Rick_Massarini
11-02-2010, 07:09 AM
I never said that Keith is getting old - I said that I'm getting old - remember, I'm the one who is thinking about selling the studio and investing it in those Tripod Walkers... Remember, I'm still recovering from that Brown Recluse bite (what a pain in the butt) ...

Michael_Gan
11-02-2010, 02:53 PM
Actually yes there are many. I'm a Certified Emergency Medical Technician and I had to complete a course of instruction, then take a written and hands on test. I'm currently enrolled as a Paramedic student and to become certified and get my Paramedic license I have to complete a course of instruction, then pass a written and hands on exam prior to my internship. When I became a certified real estate agent I had to complete a course of instruction then pass a written exam. To be honest every certification I can think of requires a course of instruction prior to testing. The part that they all have in common is there are pass/fail standards established for them. In the case of becoming a Certified Professional Photographer there are no defined pass/fail standards that can be taught if I read your post right when you said none existed.

What certification is available without education?Yes, but if you will look closely at the programs you mentioned, the learning is required, but not a function of the certification body itself. It's prime function is to test what you know, but it cannot say you must go to "this school/course" or read "this particular book".

Those courses you mentioned are mandated by your state laws because they deal with the health and welfare of the public, and is a licensing issue. For our industry, as an example, our work does not affect the public health or welfare and thus does not require education in order to certify. There is a huge difference.

GregYager
11-02-2010, 04:06 PM
Michael, we've come around full circle in this conversation which is a good thing. The fact that the PPA is no longer the certifying entity is what opens up a huge educational void that we can now fill. When we were the certifying body we could not fill that void ethically therefore for 30 years people had to fend for themselves. Now that PPA is separate from the certification process we can look into providing the rudimentary education that a multitude of photographers need in order to be both successful and certified.

It's true that there are many webinars out there that cover most all areas of photography ranging from how to light a subject to how to make the boxes look pretty but these are scattered far and wide. What I see a need for is something along the lines of "Studio Photography from Shooting to Sale". It would be a course that started with the fundamentals of shooting such as lighting and posing and eventually covered every aspect of running a successful studio. One of the webinars/classes would be called "Shooting Certification Quality Images". This wouldn't be a one hour class and you're ready. It would be a class that gave instruction then required the student to complete the task of assembling a portfolio that would meet the stringent standards of a working pro.

It would be up to the certifying body to establish these standards though. As long as there are no official pass/fail standards for the portfolio review process it will be more of an opinion that is vague and changes from year to year as reviewers change.

The bulk of this course could be assembled by simply organizing existing webinars into one place and put in a working order. Something along the lines of a 12 part crash course. Once it was put together new members could be introduced to it as the place to begin their journey to becoming a true pro. You see new applicants images all the time therefore I know you see the need for this.

My question is this.... If I took the time to draw up an outline of this course who would I need to present it to in order to have the idea considered?

Michael_Gan
11-02-2010, 05:34 PM
There's problems with this. As you can already see, anything that is out there, including this gallery, and some of the courses that already exist are being construed as backed by the certification commission, when indeed, it is not. And PPA runs the risk of potentially bad PR. Let say you give a class in "How to pass your certification images", and the candidate fails? You then open up a can of worms from candidates claiming "This person, backed by PPA, guaranteed that if I take this course, I will pass the image review!"

See how PPA can get in trouble? This is why we have to put a disclaimer on the current prep courses that "Taking this class is not a guarantee that you will pass the written exam". Let's say we have 100 photographers teaching a prep course under the guise of PPA, can you imagine how hard it would be to monitor those classes to assure the certification commission that those classes are not answer mills?

Howard_Kier
11-02-2010, 05:58 PM
Rick,

I just wanted to publicly point out you were not one of the individuals who I was addressing. I'm sorry if in my attempt not to call out a specific person, you thought you were included. Actually, I don't recall having seen any of the critiques you provided. However, from your comments and what I saw, the big difference is that you actually provided a score. A score is helpful. Negative comments without weighting or context may not be helpful enough to allow a candidate to know if they will be able to certify.

Now I agree with you, A professional photographer should know if their work is professional quality or not. Unfortunately, there are many out there who call themselves professional yet really don't meet the standard. In addition, I have a concern there are images which are professional quality, break many rules are loved by the clients yet would not allow a photographer to pass certification. Certification is not the place to go out on a limb (ie camera tilt). It is a time to play it safe and show the judges you know what you are doing. Part of the critique process is to learn what images are safe and which ones might go too far. The idea is to understand what the judges are looking for and not to learn how to take a professional photo. However, I do have to admit, that upon looking at some of the photos submitted for critique I was quite surprised at the poor quality shown (color correction, exposure, out of focus).

GregYager
11-02-2010, 08:10 PM
Let say you give a class in "How to pass your certification images", and the candidate fails? You then open up a can of worms from candidates claiming "This person, backed by PPA, guaranteed that if I take this course, I will pass the image review!"



No class should come with a guarantee. It should be able to teach a standard though. Once the standard is established then the standard can be taught. People will make claims regardless of the circumstances. As it stands with no official standards in place, a person that fails the image review can claim that their images should have passed but the judges simply didn't like their style. We all know this probably wouldn't be the case but with no official standards who's to say their claim is not justified?

Standards would make it much easier on the reviewers as well. They would then have a solid base on which to make their claims as to whether a portfolio is pass or fail.

This is just a thought but what if the portfolio required certain things such as:
Image 1. Show the proper use of short lighting.
Image 2. Show the proper use of broad lighting.
Image 3. Show the proper use of low key.
Image 4. Show the proper use of high key.
Image 5. Show a before and after sample of facial retouching to include acne removal and overall enhancement.
Image 6. Show an environmental portrait made in open shade.
etc...

I really don't see a liability in teaching standards but I can see a liability in charging a fee for a portfolio review that has no official standards.

Let the certifying commission establish the standards.
Let the PPA teach the standards.
Meeting those standards in the final test and review is up to the applicant.

Jeff_Dachowski
11-02-2010, 08:18 PM
No class should come with a guarantee. It should be able to teach a standard though. Once the standard is established then the standard can be taught. People will make claims regardless of the circumstances. As it stands with no official standards in place, a person that fails the image review can claim that their images should have passed but the judges simply didn't like their style.

Greg,
any applicant that does not pass can request a one on one review of thier images with a CPP juror like myself.

Jeff

GregYager
11-02-2010, 08:33 PM
I know Jeff but without a solid standard out there a review becomes simply an opinion. What makes it bad is that it's an opinion you don't find out about until after you fail. The current method for reviewing images works great for competition prints because they are supposed to be cutting edge and thought inspiring. It's my understanding that the certification review is to show that you know the basics of shooting professional images consistently.

With standards in place a person would know what to prepare for and could improve their work in order to meet that standard. As it stands it can be a crap shoot trying to create a passing portfolio and being told after the fact why one failed could be frustrating. It would drive the person to say "Why didn't someone tell me this before?"