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rNeil_Photog
09-07-2010, 11:06 PM
I've been hunting around for the rules for setting up for digital entry in the judging of images, and cannot find the info. I've searched for Jury Chair manual ... and got a message the page has been removed. I've searched for several other things and returned nothing of explanation.

And of course, I've gone through all the menu options under competitions and resources without luck either.

As a state affiliate officer and PPA member, I get asked about this quite a bit, and can't find any info to give back.

Thanks for any help I can get!

Neil

Keith_A_Howe
09-08-2010, 12:14 AM
Neil,
Here is what you need I think.
http://www.ppa.com/competitions/districts.php
Scroll all the way to the bottom and there is a video tutorial. If this doesn't tell you what you need, contact Jim Dingwell. jdingwell@ppa.com

Keith

rNeil_Photog
09-14-2010, 04:13 AM
Thanks, Keith ... but apparently I wasn't clear enough. I wanted the JUDGING set-up for this, which is why I asked for the set-up files. I commented that I'd been looking for the Jury Chair instructions, which has always had the instructions for the judging area set-up in it.

If I were looking for how to enter, I would not have been looking for the info listed above, I don't think.

Randy McNeilly responded to my enquiry of his face-book page with the info that it's pretty much up in the air until they see how the SWPPA goes, then should be finalized. So, it's apparently a waiting period ... dang, patience required!

Neil

Joe_Campanellie
09-14-2010, 02:45 PM
I think SWPPA is this coming weekend. It will be very interesting to see how that competition goes. I will be very curious how many people will take advantage of this new entry format. And even more curious how much of an impact it will have on entries across the board.

I keep hearing within my own association about how so many more people will enter if we were digital. How expensive prints are and such. So with the new entry options those objections should go out the window...!

Rick_Massarini
09-14-2010, 06:57 PM
I will be at Southwest working at the print competition this weekend, I'll let you know how it went when I get back. Since it's the first time it is being used at the District level, there might be a learning curve for some (mostly for those on the print crews) - but not for the jurors - all (except for one) of the judges who are judging this year at Southwest also judged at the National Judging this year, so they've all been broken in on the system already.

Keith_A_Howe
09-14-2010, 08:29 PM
As a state affiliate officer and PPA member, I get asked about this quite a bit, and can't find any info to give back.
Neil


Thanks, Keith ... but apparently I wasn't clear enough. I wanted the JUDGING set-up for this, which is why I asked for the set-up files.

I misunderstood. I assumed if someone were asking you as a state officer it was because they wanted to know how to prep their files. On the district level PPA is providing the equipment, software and a tech person to do the set up, so it will not be necessary for state level to know how to do this, at least not until after they have been through it once with help from PPA. The set up is for the specific software and moniter which is owned by PPA. It is not software which will be released to the affiliates because they have a huge investment in it and they are trying to protect that investment at least for awhile. So that's why a tech person will be sent out to do the set up at each district competition. That's why there are no specs anywhere for you to download. What I can tell you is there are 2 30 inch monitors placed back to back connected to a special card that allows for independant calibration for each monitor. These are run from a laptop controled by a room captian that is a jury chairman. The judges set 3 on each side. This allows for a better viewing angle for each judge. Hope this helps.
Keith

rNeil_Photog
09-15-2010, 06:23 PM
Thanks for the info, Rick, Keith, and Joe. I'll be waiting for your thoughts after the judging at Southwest.

Although I must note, the info that Keith provided is somewhat ... uncomfortable? If we at our state affiliates cannot give the same judging options as "districts" (I still don't "grok" the need to change from "regionals" ... sigh) I see a distinct problem.

If the digital-submission works as well as hoped, and some of our members adopt this, and we cannot give the same judging set-up at our state judging as Nationals, our digi-submission members will simply skip our judgings. Our case counts are down already to the point that for most states the fees can't cover the costs without being counter-productive.

Does PPA-National have any advice or help in that case other than ... not their problem?

And past this, those that have asked me how this will work have been experienced print comp folk, who work hard at working the system and want to know how the new system works to see if they could make this work as effectively as "real" print submissions, and of course ... it would be especially interesting if they can control costs doing it.

But that takes me back to a concern created in Keith's comments ... that one of the "cost controls" they might institute would be to simply skip the state comp if we can't provide a realistic facsimile of the judging situation for National digi-entries. They are CERTAINLY not going to pay for a print-case of lab-prints for the state comp on entries they'll submit nationally as digitals.

So ... I'll be interested in following this quite closely.

Neil

Keith_A_Howe
09-16-2010, 01:15 PM
Neil, I understand your concerns and feel you make several valid points. I suggest that you take this to PEC. This forum is a great place to discuss all this and toss around ideas but PEC is where changes can be made. Send an email to jdingwell@ppa.com He will then forward it to the appropiate parties.

Keith

Jeff_Dachowski
09-16-2010, 04:45 PM
Although I must note, the info that Keith provided is somewhat ... uncomfortable? If we at our state affiliates cannot give the same judging options as "districts" (I still don't "grok" the need to change from "regionals" ... sigh) I see a distinct problem.

If the digital-submission works as well as hoped, and some of our members adopt this, and we cannot give the same judging set-up at our state judging as Nationals, our digi-submission members will simply skip our judgings. Our case counts are down already to the point that for most states the fees can't cover the costs without being counter-productive.

Does PPA-National have any advice or help in that case other than ... not their problem?

And past this, those that have asked me how this will work have been experienced print comp folk, who work hard at working the system and want to know how the new system works to see if they could make this work as effectively as "real" print submissions, and of course ... it would be especially interesting if they can control costs doing it.

But that takes me back to a concern created in Keith's comments ... that one of the "cost controls" they might institute would be to simply skip the state comp if we can't provide a realistic facsimile of the judging situation for National digi-entries. They are CERTAINLY not going to pay for a print-case of lab-prints for the state comp on entries they'll submit nationally as digitals.

So ... I'll be interested in following this quite closely.

Neil

Neil,
Keep in mind that the real barrier in giving the State membership a true "test" is in the seats of the jurors, not in the delivery of the image to the panel. If your state has 2 approved jurors and 5 non approved jurors, your membeship might get a very different read on thier prints when compared to a district( regional ) or national panel.

Jeff

rNeil_Photog
09-17-2010, 06:57 AM
Jeff, we have had Randy and several others out over the years to teach the one-day judging class ... the wife and I both took multi-day classes from Harold Bovee and Jim Redden (I think that was the second one ... dates me, you know!) and we have our own approved list of "locals" that have taken at least two judging classes, scored in a "front row" fashion (paper, checked against the print scores of the judges) and summer comps before being approved to sit in at an annual judging. Not all are completely up to "typical" approved jurors, but some are better than many we've had off the proper list. And yes, we always want to have at LEAST two approved jurors. So our competitions are scored fairly well.

And of course, are not advertised as a PPA-qualified comp to begin with. We're just durn close. (And I enjoyed your program out here a year/two back!)

I've had some wonderfully enlightening emails with Sam Gardner, a juror and acquaintance from Washington ... and as Keith notes, he also felt some of my comments were worth further thought. We ... the state affiliates ... are in the same boat as the PPA, with shrinking comp cases and a great need to boost them back up, both for the health of the association AND for the good of the photogs entering.

I would prefer PPA to find a way to cooperate with the locals, rather than seeming to ignore us. We need each other.

Jeff_Dachowski
09-17-2010, 01:51 PM
Jeff, we have had Randy and several others out over the years to teach the one-day judging class ... the wife and I both took multi-day classes from Harold Bovee and Jim Redden (I think that was the second one ... dates me, you know!) and we have our own approved list of "locals" that have taken at least two judging classes, scored in a "front row" fashion (paper, checked against the print scores of the judges) and summer comps before being approved to sit in at an annual judging. Not all are completely up to "typical" approved jurors, but some are better than many we've had off the proper list. And yes, we always want to have at LEAST two approved jurors. So our competitions are scored fairly well.

And of course, are not advertised as a PPA-qualified comp to begin with. We're just durn close. (And I enjoyed your program out here a year/two back!)

I've had some wonderfully enlightening emails with Sam Gardner, a juror and acquaintance from Washington ... and as Keith notes, he also felt some of my comments were worth further thought. We ... the state affiliates ... are in the same boat as the PPA, with shrinking comp cases and a great need to boost them back up, both for the health of the association AND for the good of the photogs entering.

I would prefer PPA to find a way to cooperate with the locals, rather than seeming to ignore us. We need each other.

Neil,
I was not diasgreeing with you at all. I know you have some valid points here. In our assoc, we are not planning to move to any digital comp until PPA had settled on a set up for at least three years, maybe more. I think one of your concerns will be why print a print for the OR convention when I am not even printing one for nationals.

Thanks for the kind words.

Jeff

rNeil_Photog
09-17-2010, 11:07 PM
Jeff,

That's my point exactly. Our members that are going to submit to PPA in digital form will almost undoubtedly be un-interested in that "old-style" hassle and expense of having prints made, mounted, and shipped/delivered to our State competition. Right off the bat, our case count will drop 10%-30% is my projection, and it will be some of our better competitors.

Within three years I don't think we'll have enough entrants to still HAVE a state print competition with a full PPA-style judging as we do now. We're barely affording it now ... drop the print-case numbers by 10%-30%/yr for a couple years, our print competition is history. And for some of those members who can't test-run their prints through our comp, their membership, participation, expertise, and dues will be history too as we will NOT have satisfied their needs.

A loss all 'round that I would dearly, dearly seek to avoid.

Neil