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Mark_Abraham
05-01-2006, 07:27 PM
You'll have to forgive me on this one, I have not even seen a mounted picture for a print compettition, so I am virtually going into this blind.

A.) The Picture must be mounted on a 16x20 Mount Board, I get that part. I guess there is another size too, but I am not worried about that right now.

B.) I get that you can be creative on the positioning of your picture on the board, IE, more top left Corner, Bottom right corner ect if you have a smaller than 16x20 picture.

Q1.) I could even if my picture is less than 16x20 have a 16x20 Print made, position the actual picture and any border I want on the 16x20 surface as I desired and have thaat mounted to a board or I could have a picture something less than 16x20 in size, with a border and some amount of space outside that boarder but all still not totaling 16x20 and mount it somewhere on the board?

Are either of those valid options or is one or the other not and what are your thoughts if both are allowed on one verses the other. I was thinking that if its a full 16x20 print that finger prints might end up showing from handling when the actual judging is done. I am also somewhat less than thrilled with the way pictures less than 16x20 will have to be managed within the space, IE, there being more black space on one set of sides than on the other set. Maybe thats why some opt for a corner location to minimize that.

Help is appreciated! Sorry for the sloppy typing, late to a meeting already! :-)

Wilson_Hitchings
05-01-2006, 09:24 PM
Assuming you're talking about PPofA competitions, I believe you image cannot be double mounted. The 16x20 requirement is a single piece mounting, no mattes. If your image area is less than 16x20, then digitally put the image within a 16x20 canvas. I had a red stroke around my 11x14 images with a sepia or black background.

Mark_Abraham
05-01-2006, 09:31 PM
Is it frowned upon to have a 10x15 image in a 16x20 Space with unequal distance around the edges? IE, do the judges just consider space beyond the image as irrelevant if its blank?

Thanks!

D._Craig_Flory
05-01-2006, 09:39 PM
Hi Mark;

First of all, you will be required to use an approved print case to ship your entries. You are correct ... the overall size of the presentation is 16" X 20" or 20" X 16". Thickness is to be between 1/8th & 3/8th inches. I'm attaching a .pdf of the print rules ... read all carefully.

I recommend that you buy one of the PPA Loan Collection Books to study what has worked for others. You can find a number of years collections available from Marathon Press.

You need to pay close attention to composition and the rule of thirds. It also helps if you know the "Dirty Dozen" of print competition. I'm attaching the list also.

I'm sure you will get lots of tips. I would like to see you enter a competition in your state assn. or a sub-state group first before paying to enter the PPA competition. It helps if you get your feet wet at a lesser competition before moving on to the big one. Good luck;

D. Craig Flory PPA Certified, Cr.Photog., ASP
floryphotog@mindspring.com

Buddy_Stewart
05-01-2006, 09:48 PM
Wilson says <I believe you image cannot be double mounted> Actually it can be multiple mounted (I have had an image with 8 layers). With electronic printing it just isn't done much anymore because it isn't necessary to achieve the same presentation. In PPA competitions ALL non masters must enter a 16x20 inch presentation. IMO this allows for a great deal of creativity in the presentation as opposed to a flush mounted image. It allows the use of the 16x20 space to creatively present a smaller image and add a great deal of impact to an image that, if flush mounted would not have much. Composition and thus impact is improved by the use of positioning on the area and the use of accent lines (some call this step mounting) to provide excitement and strenghjten the image. You will see images which are different sizes which are entered by members holding the master's degree in that competition. Those images must have at least 80 square inches of presentation not to exceed 480 square inches of presentation with no side longer than 24 inches. The rules also state that no substance that will do harm to any other entry is to be used. It was thought at one time that cut mats would cause harm but those are legal now. Also no entry may be mounted on masonite or on a stretcher frame. Download the current rules from the PPA site (found under the competitions area) and read through them to get a little better idea of what is accepted. Try to view/enter/work on a print crew the next competition in your area. When I first started (early 70s) I learned as much from print competition as from many programs.
Buddy Stewart, PEC vice chairman

Mark_Abraham
05-02-2006, 04:00 AM
Thanks for everyones help. I think I understand it all now. I have the images I want and believe I have them tuned and croped to deal with most of the Dirty Dozen. the 1/12 that still bothers me a little is the presentation and mounting. I understand it all, however do to the odd sizes I will need to think about all this more. Too bad the black area is just not considered dead space, I do understand though that rules are rules and that if they are merited in the judging then one ought not to ignore them less they wish to suffer the consequences.

Alas, I will think on it more, maybe even skip this year and try something more local. Too bad I am licked by the mounting right now.

Wilson_Hitchings
05-02-2006, 05:18 AM
Buddy, I've never seen a three-dimensional mount at any competition...only flush mounted images. Are you talking about years ago?


Wilson says <I believe you image cannot be double mounted> Actually it can be multiple mounted (I have had an image with 8 layers). With electronic printing it just isn't done much anymore because it isn't necessary to achieve the same presentation. In PPA competitions ALL non masters must enter a 16x20 inch presentation. IMO this allows for a great deal of creativity in the presentation as opposed to a flush mounted image. It allows the use of the 16x20 space to creatively present a smaller image and add a great deal of impact to an image that, if flush mounted would not have much. Composition and thus impact is improved by the use of positioning on the area and the use of accent lines (some call this step mounting) to provide excitement and strenghjten the image. You will see images which are different sizes which are entered by members holding the master's degree in that competition. Those images must have at least 80 square inches of presentation not to exceed 480 square inches of presentation with no side longer than 24 inches. The rules also state that no substance that will do harm to any other entry is to be used. It was thought at one time that cut mats would cause harm but those are legal now. Also no entry may be mounted on masonite or on a stretcher frame. Download the current rules from the PPA site (found under the competitions area) and read through them to get a little better idea of what is accepted. Try to view/enter/work on a print crew the next competition in your area. When I first started (early 70s) I learned as much from print competition as from many programs.
Buddy Stewart, PEC vice chairman

Mark_Levesque
05-02-2006, 12:21 PM
Mark-

What is it that concerns you about the mounting? When you have your lab make your prints, simply instruct them to mount them for competition. End of story. You need never get near a heat press.

Buddy_Stewart
05-02-2006, 12:49 PM
Wilson asked <Buddy, I've never seen a three-dimensional mount at any competition...only flush mounted images. Are you talking about years ago?> I don't see many but a matted entry is an acceptable entry. Most don't use them because of cost or difficulty of production. Today the presentation for most is done on the single piece of paper with the print.
Buddy Stewart, PEC vice chairmen

D._Craig_Flory
05-02-2006, 01:32 PM
Hi Mark;

Keep something in mind ... not every image has all of the dirty dozen. And the 12 are not weighted equally. Some are much more important than others. Nothing will beat experience. Beides going through it and seeing how you do ... two things will really help you.

#1 Sitting and watching an open print judging. Here in Pennsylvania, it is very popular to sit and watch the judges view, and score, the images. I think it is an excellent way to learn. National judging is only a thumbs up or down situation and you don't get scores. So you have no idea how close you were. So a state, or lower, competition is good in that you get a score and can see how close you are to the coveted 80.

#2 Go to the print critique. The print critique is also popular. You can have your images critiqued to see where you could have done better.

Once you get your 1st ribbon you will be hooked.

As was pointed out ... the labs know what the competition thickness is to be. But, if you are worried about it ... PPA used to sell a small metal square thing ... with two slots cut in it. The one is the minimum thickness and the other is the maximum. If it won't fit in the minimum, and will fit in the maximum, you are ok. It was $10.00 ... I don't know if it is still sold and, if so, how much it is now. I don't worry about it. I just have my lab mount on 3/16th black-core gatorfoam. That's in between the 1/8th minimum and 3/8th maximum so nothing to worry about. I do NOT recommend using regular mount board. It tends to bow and not stay perfectly straight.

Good luck ...

D. Craig Flory PPA Certified, Cr.Photog., C.P.P. Liaison, ASP
floryphotog@mindspring.com

Mark_Abraham
05-02-2006, 02:19 PM
Thanks for the advice.. I think I know how I'll address my final woories on it. I think what you said also helps ease my mind about it. I'll be making the final tweaks tonight and then taking the CD to the lab tomorrow with guide proofs so they get the color correct and all.

I'll have them make one first, see how I like it and then have them do the other three if I feel good about the first.

Thanks again!

Buddy_Stewart
05-02-2006, 06:37 PM
Craig wrote <the labs know what the thickness must be> True the labs will mount a competition image to the old thickness requirements. In 2003 PEC adopted a policy which does not penalize the maker for thickness. In other words there are no thickness requirements. The rules state (recommended mounting thickness is 1/8" to 3/8"). All entries will be judged for merit and if receiving a merit for loan. If a merited image will not hang in the display racks it will not be exhibited but will receive the merits applicable. Most labs are mounting images thicker than necessary at this time. Just a clarification.
Buddy Stewart, PEC vice chairman

D._Craig_Flory
05-03-2006, 12:53 AM
Hi Buddy;

Our state, as well as Mid-East Regional, both still have the minimum of 1/8th and the maximum of 3/8th in the official rules. If thinner than 1/8th, or thicker than 3/8th, the prints are disqualified. I missed that PPA now have those sizes only as recommendations. I'm surprised that has not fitered down to at least the regionals. Maybe PPA should contact all regionals to change their rules. Then, in turn, the states would get the message and change theirs accordingly.

Thanks for the heads-up.

D. Craig Flory PPA Certified, Cr.Photog, PPA C.P.P. Liaison, ASP
floryphotog@mindspring.com

Buddy_Stewart
05-03-2006, 09:34 PM
Craig said <Mid-East Regional, both still have the minimum of 1/8th and the maximum of 3/8th in the official rules. If thinner than 1/8th, or thicker than 3/8th, the prints are disqualified> PEC controls ALL regionals including the Mid-East Regional and NO print has been disqualified for thickness or thinness in the last three years. I was Overall JC at the Mid East Regional in Dayton last year and we didn't even measure one print nor was the print crew asked or instructed to measure or look for entries that were over/under in thickness. If Pennsylvania is still using the thickness rule they are operating in the past as far as PEC is concerned. PEC decided it was wrong to penalize an entry because of thickness. The rule was put in place because of prints bowing and falling out of the racks. If a print falls now we just don't display it. We don't disqualify it and we still give it it's earned merits.
Buddy Stewart, PEC vice chairman

Linda_Gregory
05-04-2006, 02:48 AM
I find this very interesting! Have the locals been appraised of this and just choose to ignore it? We all at HOA (Heart of America, Nebraska, Iowa, Kansas and Missouri) go under the constrictions of width for entries.

It's posted in the rules and I would think long and hard about being the one to enter one not in those guidelines knowing the PEC says it's not necessary.

Buddy_Stewart
05-04-2006, 01:03 PM
Hi Linda,
We photographers are creatures of habit. I went to the HOA website but your rules have been removed from the site (it's over). I'm sure the HOA rules said the same as the rules posted on the PPA site for the International competition which only has the recommendation for thickness. The Regional rules are approved by PEC before they can be published. Some may read the recommendation as being a requirement but we simply don't measure print thickness anymore. It certainly will not be held against anyone who does think it is a requirement, though. I was your overall JC at Heart this year and we didn't measure prints. Ya'll had some great images with six 100's in the mix! As far as the state and local competitions PEC has no juridiction over them and they are free to have any rule they desire. In most cases they just keep doing what they have been doing. Hope this is a further clarification. Hope everyone's getting their entries ready to send to the International competition. Deadline is June 1st! REMINDER!!! If you sealed an image at your regional it MUST be submitted to this years International competition in order to receive your merit.

Buddy Stewart, PEC vice chairman

Linda_Gregory
05-04-2006, 01:43 PM
Thank you very much for that information!

And yes, we in the midlands have a surprising amount of talent in all areas....photography is one. :D Mine were not 100's. I was very, very happy with the scores I recieved, two 78s, one 82 and one 83 with this being my first year to enter.

My mentor, one who's achieved many, many levels of awards including PPA lifetime award, encouraged me and chose one of my images to submit. He was dismayed it only scored 78 and wished he could have been there to hear the discussion on it but by the time I was done working with it, printing and reprinting, I no longer like it. I'm more than ready to move on!

I'm sure it's way too late now, all those prints to remember but since neither he nor I were able to attend, is there a way after an event to ask for a critique or get reasoning behind a certain score?

Buddy_Stewart
05-04-2006, 09:49 PM
Linda,
Congrats on your prints. It might be difficult to remember a specific print unless it was one you had been involved in as a challenger. The best education comes from witnessing the competition itself, not from just your own images but from all those judged. I encourage everyone to be present if possible. I would not want to know which are your images at this point because it is possible I would judge them again at International in July and would not want to have to disqualify myself as a juror. Best of luck.
Buddy Stewart, PEC vice chairman

Linda_Gregory
05-04-2006, 11:50 PM
I totally agree! I can't tell you how I wanted to be there but could not make it this year.

No, I know it's too late this year, even if you DID see the prints, weren't compromising future judging, etc. I'm not sure, if it were me, what I'd remember even if shown the images after seeing so many!

It's all a wonderful process and I'm in awe, still, that I was a tiny part of it. I don't ever want those emotions to become jaded.

Buddy_Stewart
05-08-2006, 03:52 AM
Just a reminder to all that entries to the 2006 International competition are due in Lincoln, Nebraska by June 1. That leaves us 24 days to "git 'em done". Good luck to all and hope all will compete.
Buddy Stewart, PEC vice chairman

Mark_Abraham
05-09-2006, 04:41 AM
It is counting down.. and getting ready for one of these is more work than I thought but very educational and enjoyable.

I recieved one of my entries back today from the lab, the others all to be ready next Monday. I find it facinating how after understanding the rules and process that I ended up with different images being entered than i originally imagined. And I have to say that it is a good thing.

We shall see how they do, it will be exciting to find out eventually.

Thanks for everyone's help!
Mark