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John_Metcalfe
02-18-2010, 06:02 PM
I'm not sure where to exactly take this and I'm sure the powers that be minds are set, but after a conversation I had this morning, I found a bit of irony in my breakfast.

Here are the parts that built the irony from today's discussion.
(Please note I (for the time being) am merely pointing out the irony.))

Over the past few years it has been mentioned that one of the main reasons why newer members do not compete is because of "cost".

There have been several discussions I've experienced along with threads here discussing this at length telling me this is true.

Now the new age of Digital Entries are upon us.

What does this mean and to who's benefit?

A. lower overhead
1. - less expense for the maker. (full circle)
2. - less expense for PPA. No storage, less shipping, little to no return shipping.

B. lower entry fees
1. ummm from what I hear "no".

C. more participation
1. more local, state and regional involvement. (Means we have new judging equipment to purchase)
2.PPA has more participation (new equipment? I'm sure) definitely more revenue

The "irony"

If you made the trip, booked the room and were at the awards banquet preparing to receive your POTY award, you heard at first you were to stand an be recognized. Not all in attendance witnessed this. That was later changed... I am sure that many factors came into both the original decision and the change in the format. (Not for me to judge) BUT (here it comes) the irony of this for me was (wait for it) that we were told over the sound system that "there was too many of us receiving awards"!

Now for my opinion.

Here is the way I see it.

Prints gone 16x20.
Prints gone open. (80sq" to 480sq")
Prints gone digital.
Prints gone.

There will definitely be a missing factor when that happens.


I was born into and come from the "old school" mentality when it comes to competition.

I witnessed today the acknowledgment to the end of an era.

My friend said to me, "John, I am glad I am older than you. You are going to have to put up with this a lot longer than me."

I was saddened by this, for my friend and my thoughts were on the reality of the diminishing meanings these honors hold.

Our agreement of the times and the changes required to fit the needs of our organization's expansion/time restraints/operating expenses, left two friends/photographers/competitors with a smile and a pat on the back.


Even though saddened by this, I also am excited for the changes in competition. I see it as an opportunity to get out of my lawn chair and dive into another challenge!

God willing and the creek don't rise, MEI here I come!

John_Metcalfe
02-24-2010, 12:16 AM
Never laughed so hard when I came back almost a week later and no additional posts. Too Funny...

I guess after the cover issue thread I brought to life I can understand...

I have had a few judges talk with me concerning this year's comp and they have hinted to me to be (pro) print. I was thinking more like 50/50 between 2 possible cases. 4 print general and 4 images on cd for E.I. What is anyone else thinking?

Rick_Massarini
02-24-2010, 02:19 AM
I'm going in the opposite direction - I'm gonna enter a case of tintypes...

Jeff_Dachowski
02-24-2010, 02:58 AM
John,
Since I hate my case so much I have 4 seals that I feel compelled to send in. In the PO case , I have two illustrative albums( digital) a wedding album ( digital, and a portrait ( print).

My Ei case will likelly just be all digital.

Jeff

Sarah_Johnston
02-24-2010, 04:42 AM
I understand the effect of cost for the prints vs just uploading files. I know there are many out there that will opt to upload. This year it is not available for PO. PLEASE keep in mind the PRINT show at IUSA will exist as long as there are PRINTS to display. You can not enter digitally and then print them for the show. I have 4 seals so my prints will be going. IF I can get an EI cases ready in time for SEPPA, I plan on sending PRINTS to that too.
John- as far as the cost of entering. Sending digitally does not change the fact we need to pay for a place to judge and for judges to get and stay there TO judge. These are not costs that are going down. If you have never been to a national judging, you have not seen just what a production it is. Take a state competition and put it on steroids. 2 EI rooms for 3 days. 2 album rooms for 2-3 days. 2-4 PO rooms for 2-4 days then all converted to LOAN rooms for the remainder of the judging. A critique room with a min of 4 computer stations with phones and 2-3 staffers to run it for the judges doing the critiques. Each judging room has a JC, room captain, 6 judges and 3-4 volunteers. Also there are several roving volunteers to move print carts and sort in the very large sorting room. Trust me when I say it is a HUGE undertaking and not cheap. Image competition is not what you would call a money maker by any stretch of the imagination. If there is more participation, it would generate more revenue. That will help pay for the new software to keep things straight and organized as well as used for the actual judging of files. New equipment? Yes Digital Judging is going to require new equipment. So does any type progress in any industry. PPA is going to help the districts by shipping them the equipment for their judging, complete with a staffer to set it up and teach them how to run it.
Trust me when I say that I was very skeptical of the whole "going digital" when I first started hearing the buzz about it. I have now seen the software and have listened to both sides of the aisle on this. I think in the long run it is a positive change. I think it will aid in getting the "new" generation of photographers involved in competition. I think it will help some that are afraid to take that first jump into the world of competition, which to me is the best part. By getting involved in it, they will work harder to improve their work, which will help raise the bar back up as to what IS professional quality work. THAT will be good for everyone.
OK, I will stop now, but you know I am VERY passionate about the value of image competition.

crdameron
02-24-2010, 02:17 PM
I'm not a huge competitor, in fact, I have only entered one competition and have only 2 merits to my name. It was an awesome experience and I will be entering again. I have also never entered anything digtially, but I have to say when I got my images from the lab all printed and shiny and ready to go I was pretty darn proud of myself. I had been looking at the images and working the iamges forever and to actually finally see the images in print was awesome. I think I would miss that digitally.

Also so many of the discussions and classes that I have sat in at PPA all I have heard is "sell your clients prints" why in the industry would push the print thing for clients, but not hold photographers to that same rule when it comes to competition. I also find the cost thing a non-issue because it is a business expense. I want to invest in my business and by pushing myself to create better images that will pass some kind of quality check, makes me stand out from the "picture takers".

Another fun thing for me was seeing my images hanging with all of the other images in the gallery. I was so excited to see that! What happens when all of the images are digital? Is there just a big screen that everything is prjected on? BORING! I don't wanna go to the art museum and see great paintings shown to me on a screen. I want see the painting, I want get lost in the texture, I want to pick out every little detail. I think we would lose that with only digital.

I am however still learning the competition thing though. My understanding of the digital process may be wrong though, so if I am missing something integral that makes the digital process more amazing, please let me know.

Also I have never entered an album competiton. I think the cost on the printing of the album alone might just keep me from entering that competiton. The last album I printed ended up being about $800.00. I can see the reason why the album competition is going digital.

John_Metcalfe
02-24-2010, 02:37 PM
Rick- if tintypes were allowed I would have jumped on that boat long ago. I also have some made on glass, rock and a nice one on some old grocery store paper bags...

John_Metcalfe
02-24-2010, 02:59 PM
Sarah - I love getting you stirred up. I know, it's a gift.

I also would love to here more.

You have been very informative so far, but I feel we have only scratched the surface. I have my own views on this "raise the bar back up" thought and since being on the fringe of my own affiliate juror jump, it would be nice to hear more point of views from other PEC board members and affiliate jurors and their expectations coming into this and future competitions.

Keith_A_Howe
02-24-2010, 03:08 PM
Charlotte
I hole heartedly agree with your thoughts about seeing the image printed, about it being a business expense and striving to improve your work. Great to hear from you.

John, you can enter all those media if you want to. They would be judged and the decision to hang them in the show would be determined by wheather or not it could be done with no risk of damaging yours or others images. So the only thing against entering on a rock for example is that it would likely not hang in the show even if it was a 100 rock!:D
Keith

Keith_A_Howe
02-24-2010, 03:24 PM
I have my own views on this "raise the bar back up" thought and since being on the fringe of my own affiliate juror jump, it would be nice to hear more point of views from other PEC board members and affiliate jurors and their expectations coming into this and future competitions.

I feel the bar is and has been up as far as competition merit worthiness (is that spelled right). Where I feel the bar has dropped is in the "professional" level day to day work. The public more and more is / or are being forced to accept a lower standard of work from a large portion of the newer photographers. A lot of these people do not know or understand light direction or what it can do for an image. They do not realize what lens choices they should use in a given situation or when they are distorting a client in an unflattering way. I get the feeling that in some cases this type or photographer is looking for an easy $ and they do not want to have to learn anything, after all to quote one person " I own a great camera and it does all the work I just see the scene and take the picture". By the way this person also considered competition to be a waste of time and cost too much to consider. My hope is that even though I was against the digital entry for next year, people like this might get envolved and actually learn something. If so that would be one drop in the bucket to help raise the bar so to speak and benifit everyone.
OK I'm done rambleing here.
Keith

KirkDarling
02-24-2010, 04:38 PM
Also so many of the discussions and classes that I have sat in at PPA all I have heard is "sell your clients prints" why in the industry would push the print thing for clients, but not hold photographers to that same rule when it comes to competition. I also find the cost thing a non-issue because it is a business expense. I want to invest in my business and by pushing myself to create better images that will pass some kind of quality check, makes me stand out from the "picture takers".

Another fun thing for me was seeing my images hanging with all of the other images in the gallery. I was so excited to see that! What happens when all of the images are digital? Is there just a big screen that everything is prjected on? BORING! I don't wanna go to the art museum and see great paintings shown to me on a screen. I want see the painting, I want get lost in the texture, I want to pick out every little detail. I think we would lose that with only digital.


I don't think anyone has ever suggested "only digital."

Something I brought up in another topic is that despite anyone's personal preference, digital products are part of what professional photographers now do, and will become more so in the future. Slide shows have developed into distinctive productions for wedding photographers and even portrait photographers. These aren't merely collections of still images shown in sequence like old Kodachromes in an Ektagraphic projector--the transistions, music, pacing, and other factors also play into the technical and artistic whole. While these will be primarily built from still images, we will see bits of video also being integrated into them. Who is going to set the standards for that?

Portrait photographers will not be left immune. No less a figure than Tim Kelly has spoken of delivering a CD to a high-end client who can afford to mount huge LCD displays as wall portrait frames in his home. In five to ten years (when 30x40 LCD displays drop to the price of a good wooden frame) we may see a high percentage of our high-end clients asking for digital files as a wall portrait option--or even as the primary product.

Where does this involve PPA competition? Because the PPA mission is to be the creator and bearer of the standards of image superiority, and those standards are forged in the crucible of PPA competition. How will we create and bear the standard of slideshows if we don't have a competition for slideshows? How will we create and bear the standard for digitally displayed images if we don't have a competition for digitally displayed images?

It is definitely not true that "if it makes a good print, it would make a good digital display." That is no more true for digital images than it was true for transparencies (and transparencies used to be entered into PPA competition, by the way). Digital images digitally displayed present new vulnerabilities and new opportunities, thus will have technical and artistic standards all their own.

But without a place for digital products in PPA competition, it will be someone else who creates and owns those standards. If we let that happen, then as digital products become more and more the output of the great majority of photographers, that someone else will become the relevant standard bearer of photographic quality.

Linda_Gregory
02-24-2010, 05:51 PM
We had a non affiliated judging at one of our state seminars. I use this time to see if the images I have chosen need work before sending them on or just thrown out.

The first time they did it digital, I prepared my images and printed out sample ones for myself because that's how I roll. (LOVE that term)

The prints looked great. When seen on the very expensive, color calibrated, absolutely awesome monitor, areas appeared blown out and my print score dropped because of that.

How in the WORLD are you ever going to get a monitor or any type display to match what people have in their studios??

I've heard mention that they're working on some program and as long as you have your monitor calibrated to your pro lab, it'll be fine.

EXCUSE ME! I AM A PRO LAB! So does that mean only SOME pro labs??? Does that mean the guy who prints his own will be left in the dust?

Okay, I'm not really that hot, I just wanted to use a lot of emotion for a change because that's NOT how I roll but I do have concerns and yes, I sell prints.

John_Metcalfe
02-24-2010, 07:37 PM
Tsssssssssssssssss

Might not want to test her boys, she's on fire!

Now that you brought it up. Good Question.

Now, how do we answer it?

Sarah touched on sending someone out, which is KOOL... BUT the only way this system will be even remotely "spot on" is to utilize the same equipment in the same process governed by the same person in the same space every time. (not possible)

Even now, with our current systems a change of any of these sometime sends all into triage mode. (ex. diff. location, layout, new director, borrowed equipment or equipment failure) Most times a way is found and the show goes on, but with a monitor it is not easy for most to obtain (and/or) the funds are not available to keep a spare.

Making the change to 5 sections will reduce the issues at the affiliate level. (good call as far as that goes) But, I foresee a learning curve issue where it comes to the local/non-affiliate comps.

KirkDarling
02-24-2010, 07:58 PM
The prints looked great. When seen on the very expensive, color calibrated, absolutely awesome monitor, areas appeared blown out and my print score dropped because of that.

That's why we need to forge a standard of what makes a good digitally displayed image. It's a different medium.


How in the WORLD are you ever going to get a monitor or any type display to match what people have in their studios??

I've heard mention that they're working on some program and as long as you have your monitor calibrated to your pro lab, it'll be fine.

It's certainly do-able. We did it in government in the early 90s with far, far, far more national-security critical applications using off-the-shelf equipment. It's all just a matter of matching numbers between a fairly limited number of specifications using the right profiles. It's easier and far less expensive now than it was then.

Jeff_Dachowski
02-24-2010, 08:03 PM
I don't think anyone has ever suggested "only digital."



Kirk,
I would bet that it already has been suggested. Maybe not by anyone on this forum, but certainly at the upper levels, it has been suggested. I predict that we will have a Digital only competition in under 5 years. I think it might even be sooner that 2015.

The fact of the matter is this...
Prints are two dimensional objects that light reflects off of to create an image in our brain. Files are translucent pixels in which light passes through to create an image in our brain. How many of you old timers remember how amazing a well done 4x5 transparency looked?: It was breathtaking! Far more impressive than a contact print of the same image. Prints are currently accepted, until such a time that it does not make sense to accept them, or print numbers are down so much that it appears there is no interest. Why would someone enter prints when the judges have been looking at awesome images with the light coming through them as opposed the light falling on the print?
Jeff

Linda_Gregory
02-24-2010, 08:13 PM
Someone on our state level board implied he KNEW we would be totally digital at the national level by 2013.

Tss1203
02-24-2010, 08:40 PM
Every time I see the title to this thread I wanna sign "prints gone digital, digital" to the tune of Olivia Newton-John's 'Lets Get Physical' ;)


There is not a digital display in the world that will ever impress me as much as seeing a printed image. Pixels on a screen just don't look as good as a beautiful print does. If it did, then we would have no need to ever see Mona Lisa or Starry Night in person. But somehow we are still in awe at seeing an amazing painting in the flesh, and I don't think it is any different with photographs.

Digital is an 'okay' option, but it should never be the only option.

Linda_Gregory
02-24-2010, 08:42 PM
Gee, what does it say when my mind just hears the Girls Gone Wild theme??

Sarah_Johnston
02-24-2010, 08:46 PM
Jeff, having seen a side by side test, not all images look better on the monitor.
There will be strict standards set for digital judging. There has been much testing of equipment.
I for 1 am a print person and plan on continuing to send prints. I hope there are several others that feel that way too. To me the PRINT show is such a great educational tool. I would hate to see it go away.

Sarah_Johnston
02-24-2010, 08:51 PM
Linda- Trust me, they don't! The PPA Board has assured us that as long as people want to enter prints they can and we will then have a print show
Drives me crazy when people that are not involved with committees KNOW things.

Jeff_Dachowski
02-24-2010, 08:56 PM
Jeff, having seen a side by side test, not all images look better on the monitor.


hi Sarah,
Congrats on your new Fuji! I agree that not everything will look better in a side by side.
Jeff

Sarah_Johnston
02-24-2010, 09:00 PM
hi Sarah,
Congrats on your new Fuji! I agree that not everything will look better in a side by side.
Jeff
Thanks!
I just think it will be equally as tough to seal or merit with digital as with print.

Sarah_Johnston
02-24-2010, 09:01 PM
Gee, what does it say when my mind just hears the Girls Gone Wild theme??
Do we really want to go there? LOL

Linda_Gregory
02-24-2010, 09:04 PM
Not intentionally! I think I'd like to know which theme was running through the OP's head!

John_Metcalfe
02-24-2010, 09:26 PM
Drives me crazy when people that are not involved with committees KNOW things.

There is a lot to be said in this statement. And it would be fun to poke a stick at it, but I won't. (right now anyway)

I guess the prescribed specs for making your image to be viewed on the monitor is available? if not, when?

Rick_Massarini
02-25-2010, 12:55 AM
One of the biggest losses in a digital exhibition (IMO) is the loss of the constant presence of the print in exhibition. I have seen people at the PPA Exhibition stare at one image for long periods of time studying the composition, lighting, or other minute details of the image that makes it effective. Considering that the most feasible method of displaying the results of a digital competition would be some kind of slide show method which would scroll through the accepted images and project them on screens or monitors for viewing, that constant presence of an image would not be there, so the image could not be extensively studied as it flashed past you. It might make an impressive display of numerous images flashing by as you viewed the screen (like the ASP "Best of the Best" show), but the opportunity to truly study the images would be gone. People go to museums and study the paintings of the great artists of the past for hours on end - so why should the great work of the artists of the present be any different? How effective would it be to see a rapid fire slide show of an old master painters work vs. a gallery showing of the actual paintings that could be studied at length? We all know that the longer you look at an image, the more you see in it...

Sarah_Johnston
02-25-2010, 01:42 AM
There is a lot to be said in this statement. And it would be fun to poke a stick at it, but I won't. (right now anyway)

I guess the prescribed specs for making your image to be viewed on the monitor is available? if not, when?

Don't make me poke back!

Oh and I don't know about the specs right now.

Rick_Massarini
02-25-2010, 02:21 AM
... as far as the cost of entering. Sending digitally does not change the fact we need to pay for a place to judge and for judges to get and stay there TO judge. These are not costs that are going down. If you have never been to a national judging, you have not seen just what a production it is. Take a state competition and put it on steroids. ... Image competition is not what you would call a money maker by any stretch of the imagination...

I'm really happy that Sarah posted this since many have no idea of the size and scope of the National Judging. State judgings usually involve a few hundred images, while at the national judging, we're handling thousands.
When people talk about the digital entries being less expensive, the only cost savings would be on the cost of the prints since the only thing that the digital entries remove is the physical print case handling and mailing issues. The biggest expenses will probably increase in near direct proportion to the number of entries - and those expenses would be the cost of the location of the judging facility (rental of sufficient space at a school or hotel), and the cost of the judges (transportation, lodging, food, honorariums, etc...). The math is simple - if digital entry were to cause the number of entries to double, then the PEC would need twice the number of judges to finish the judging in the same time period plus twice as many judging rooms, twice as many judging setups (either in turntables and lights, or digital displays) and twice as many volunteer workers - or the same number of judges, rooms, and volunteers, but for twice as many days - and that could cause a problem since doubling the time would mean that the judges would have to be away from their businesses for twice as long - which could make it difficult to find judges who would be available for 10-12 days. Either way, as the number of entries goes up, so does the cost of having them judged.
I really do not see where the entry fees could go down with digital entries since the cost to judge them would be pretty much the same, and the startup cost for a digital judging room (monitors and computers) is a lot higher than that for a turntable, drape, boom and some mini-spots. But then again, I don't believe that PPA has ever thought of the National Print competition as a source of revenue, but instead as a vital member service. I've never seen any numbers on it, but all totalled, I'll bet that the national judging is a net expense to PPA every year - but it is something that is an absolute necessity to our association's existence.

John_Metcalfe
02-25-2010, 01:10 PM
Good points Rick.

Now let's take a breath and go a little deeper.

Currently, we have how many people entering? ______ How many submissions? ______

It is assumed entries will go up, if not dramatically. (Most say yes, however I am still skeptical) In my mind, the veteran participants will jump on the wagon quicker than someone entering for the first time. (Also helpful)

Let's say the participation does double. More of everything would be needed, yes. But like in most corporations, over-time is more betterer of an option than hiring another body to fill the space. (my attempt at Dilbert corporate humor) And in this case free labor much more betterer!

If I assume correctly we know by a certain time how many entries we will have. And in preparation for this, a push to attain more qualified judges would be a must. Having able judges on stand by might not be a bad idea either.

My thinking has set it's course towards E.I.. This is where the weakest link is by my account. We have less knowledge of what really fits in this category, and thus less participation in it and even more scary less qualified judges for E.I.! This puts more pressure on the PEC, PPA and those qualified judges to educate the masses and procure more capable willing judges. This process takes time. The crop of new affiliate judges is not large and the list of M.E.I. judges my guess is even smaller. (not good)

As I have stated before, I am on the fringe of taking the class. Time, Effort and the Money to do so has gotten in the way these past 2 classes. I will get there, it is one of the goals I am holding onto.

My faith in our governing body leads me to believe that all of this has been thought through and a plan set in place already. ;) And I am sure we will see/hear (through the proper channels) the results of those discussions.

Sarah_Johnston
02-25-2010, 03:31 PM
John all of this and much more has and is being thought through very carefully. Trust me!! None of this has happened on a whim. Will the digital option get more members involved? I would love the say a resounding yes, but I do not think it will at first. I think there are a number of things that need to work in tandem with competition to increase numbers. There is much work to be done, but there a things in motion to make it happen.

John_Metcalfe
02-25-2010, 05:24 PM
John all of this and much more has and is being thought through very carefully. Trust me!! None of this has happened on a whim. Will the digital option get more members involved? I would love the say a resounding yes, but I do not think it will at first. I think there are a number of things that need to work in tandem with competition to increase numbers. There is much work to be done, but there a things in motion to make it happen.

I trust you ( just not everyone else... ;) )

What things?

What kind of work to be done?

What things are in motion?

You don't have to tell me if you don't want to OR I can just find out through "other means". You know, "the way you don't like!" HA!

Rick_Massarini
02-25-2010, 06:27 PM
We have less knowledge of what really fits in this category, and thus less participation in it and even more scary less qualified judges for E.I.!

Question for clarification... I don't want to misunderstand your statement...
by "less qualified judges" do you mean

The judges are less qualified to judge the images in this category due to the inhherent ambiguity of what belongs in this category...
or
We have fewer, in number, judges who are qualified to judge in this category...

Sarah_Johnston
02-25-2010, 06:32 PM
John, you know if I had more info that was solid I would be more than happy to post it. But I will not post things that are not decided or fully worked through. None of this is instant so BE PATIENT please. =)

John_Metcalfe
02-25-2010, 09:22 PM
Thank you Sarah for your HONEST, yet disappointing answer.


My statement:

We have less knowledge of what really fits in this category, and thus less participation in it and even more scary, less qualified judges for E.I.!

Rick's question:

The judges are less qualified to judge the images in this category due to the inhherent ambiguity of what belongs in this category...
or
We have fewer, in number, judges who are qualified to judge in this category...

Rick,

I missed a comma after scary. If you look at it now in this post it will be clearer.

IMHO, I don't believe half the stuff in the general category show be there and should be sent to E.I. to be judged. Often I have seen 2 cases from one person where both looked E.I....

But where does one draw the line? How can anyone decipher what should go where? And as far as judges go for E.I., don't they need to be M.E.I.s themselves?

I would then think if one wanted to make themselves more desirable to state, affiliate & national committees not to mention better serve as a judge themselves, they would put more eggs in the E.I. basket. WOULDN'T YOU?

Rick_Massarini
02-25-2010, 09:43 PM
Since Electronic Imaging is still in it's somewhat early stages, there is, of course, a limited number of qualified EI jurors, There are many more jurors qualified to judge in the Open category - but the EI panel that judged this year at the PPA International Judging were all eminently qualified to judge Electronic Imaging entries - There was only one EI panel used and, in fact, this particular panel was qualified to judge just about anything that you would want to put in front of them. I don't want to mention the names of the jurors who were on the panel, but just think about the 7 most qualified Electronic Imaging experts in the country - that was the panel this year - an awesome collection of talent sitting on that one panel. I don't think that they had any difficulty in judging any of the EI entries this year...

And yes - national EI jurors must have their MEI before being PEC qualified as EI jurors.

Of course I agree that we need more EI jurors so that we could have EI judging for Seals at more than one regional - but that will happen in due time as more members receive their MEI and PEC qualifies more EI jurors...

Keith_A_Howe
02-25-2010, 10:15 PM
John

What belongs in EI - images where you want to be judged based on the work you did with PS or some other image modification software. You may be the photographer but you don't have to be.

What doesn't belongs in PO - images where you want to be judged based on the final image as it stands. You are the photographer.

Perhaps if you had experience in traditional artwork it would be an easier concept for you to grasp. PO is judged on the image itself, EI like the old Art Tech, is judged on the modifications ( artwork) made. I don't see where there is any ambiguity.

I would like to know where you are getting your idea that there aren't enough EI judges? It sounds like something you are just assuming. I am pretty active in print comptition as an approved juror, a PPA councilman and on PEC action team. I have never heard anyone - from the top levels to lowly me - ever suggest we are short of EI judges. So please don't spread that rumor unless you have some facts to back it up. Otherwise it's just trying to stir up contraversy. There is enough issues that people disagree on without anyone creating artifical conflict.

As far as what is being done to increase participation in print competition - first off have you noticed there are more articles appearing in the magazine? Also there will be print competition workshops (similar to a Super Monday) heldaround the country on March 28th or 29th. These workshops will all be taught by approved jurors following a course outline developed by PEC. I cannot tell you where and when exactly because the deadline for jurors to sign up as instructors is tomorrow. I would expect emails will go out next week. There are other programs in the works including an 8x10 competition sometime later this year. That was announced at council meeting I believe or maybe it was the judges refresher course. Either way it is public knowledge. As Sarah said details are not firmed up at this time. It's unfortunate that some people insist on knowing what's in the works before plans are finalized. So when we go ahead and tell them, against our better judgement, what's coming up, then those same impatient people complain that they don't have full information. Unfortunately we can either spread partial information and get chastized for not having complete info or we can wait till all details are set in stone and get chastized because we didn't give out preliminary info. Either way somebody is not going to be happy.

Keith

Jeff_Dachowski
02-25-2010, 10:35 PM
keith,
he is probably getting the impression that we dont have enough EI jurors because I have lamented to him, that almost none of the EI approved jurors are able to look at my work, since it is likely that they will judge either SEPPA or nationals. If you want to contact someone who is not judging nationals or your region, it is much easier to find a PO qualified juror.

Not speaking for John....

btw...happy birthday! Order me a triple treat. i will be right over.
jeff

John_Metcalfe
02-25-2010, 10:54 PM
Thank you Keith.

My efforts are not spent to spread rumors.

These processes take time. I am sure those in the committees and serving on the board get tired of the prodding and hounding.

Thank you for filling me in on many aspects. I want to know as much about it as possible.

samgardnermcr
02-28-2010, 02:34 AM
Charlotte, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts here. I too firmly believe that the a real "acid test" is the ability to make a print from a digital file. It will certainly be interesting as we rush into the world of digital judging to see just what really happens to the involvement and participation levels, both in the immediate future and the long run!
The feeling of accomplishment you felt upon seeing your prints hanging in a gallery with the other International Competition Merited Prints is one to be very proud of!
I am sure all of us can remember that first print hanging, and especially that thirteenth one-perhaps best of all.
I have hopes that our PPA judging will grow well into the future both with digital entries as well as prints. The cost of entering prints has gone steadily down for all of the ten years I have been entering.
Here are some further thoughts regards this topic from my Facebook Note:
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=332054872021

Is cost really the determining factor for not entering images into a judging?
Some folks hesitate to enter print judgings, and when asked why, they often refer to the costs. However, as I have traveled and spoken to thousands of photographers, it often comes down to something quite different than the cost. Most are simply afraid their images will not look "good enough" when judged and it is this fear which paralyzes and robs us of the critical feedback which could make such a positive impact on our work!

“One must learn by doing the thing; for though you think you know it, you have no
certainty, until you try”
Aristotle
“Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win, by fearing to attempt.”
William Shakespeare
“I don't think there's any artist of any value who doesn't doubt what they're doing.”
Francis Ford Coppola

Nichelle Price (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=507391758) Well said...the first time i entered the cost was around $700 for my case..it could have been $7 and I still would have struggled...i was scared to death of what you would all say or think...i could have sworn everyone could have heard my heart beat the first time one of my prints came around. Print competition is the THE REASON my photography has improved - don't be afraid, just enter.

Dennis Hammon (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=609953005) FEAR...fear of rejection, fear of failure, fear of looking bad in front of fellow photographers. We get so 'close ' to our images , that we fear they will fail, thus we fail as well.
What new photogs don't realize that the journey of print competition begins with the selection, editing, culling those images, selection of the final images, do the... See More cropping and editing in Photoshop, sending to the lab..getting them back..seeing their babies go before a panel of judges who give an verbal/written score of that photographers interpretation of a subject or scene. If we could all take the comments , apply them to our daily work, it would get better, as well as our 'competition' images.
Yes is is scary to have your work reviewed and critiqued and scored, but if we apply that lesson to our daily work, we all will get better.

Joe Campanellie (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1453264469)

I was scared to death when I entered my first competition. And I got my head handed to me. That hurt my pride...that hurt my ego. MY first reaction was the usual...what do those judges know.But you have to move past that. I have always tried to approach competition as a learning tool. Whether I succeed or fail is not important...what is important is if I learn something...!

Besides...what if I had quit after that first competition? Well...I guess a lot of people would be happy because they wouldn't have to look at those eagles anymore!... See More

I'm the poster child for competition. If I had quit then I probably would have never discovered my real passion in life.

Sam Gardner (http://www.facebook.com/SamGardnerPhotography) If only Joe Campanellie had stopped entering way back then when his ego was battered...
1) Many more of us could have won the numerous awards and trophies he has collected instead...
2) He wouldn't have received his Masters Degree or his ASP Fellowship...... See More
3) The whole world would have been terribly slighted by the absence of his wonderful and beautiful images... so, thank you so much Joe for overcoming your own doubts and fears and sharing with so many of us your incredible photography so we may enjoy it for decades yet to come!

Joe Campanellie (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1453264469) Sam...I think that's the most incredible compliment anyone has ever given me. Thank You...! I hope you'll let me use that.

For those that know me know that 2009 was an incredible year for me. One that would be impossible to top. Not sure if any other person in PPA has manged to pull that off in one year. But Sam's right. If I had let my ego take over and not force myself to take a step back and learn from that first experience none of this would have ever been possible for me.

In my ASP thesis "Passion's Journey" I talk about life's winks. Those little things that happen to us in life that seem relatively unimportant. But, in the grand scheme of things they are absolutely huge. These winks or events are life's way of smacking you upside the head and telling you which path you are supposed to be on and why you were put on this earth in the first place. We all have a purpose here but it's up to each one of us to find that out for ourselves.... See More

It took me awhile to figure that all out but I finally got on the right path. I truly have never thought of myself as a great photographer. But when you discover your true passion in life all things are possible.


Ken Whitmire (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1391130709) Sam, another axiom for your "quote" list: "If we can't find something wrong with our current images, our next ones won't be any better"


Serena Parente Charlebois (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=693435862) People have said "the cost" to me as well, but I never believed that. I do think it must be fear of the critique.
But the educational value of sucking up your courage and entering, and sitting in on the judging, is priceless.

Carol Gage Andrews Jensen (http://www.facebook.com/carolandrewsjensen) I sure appreciate the sharing of the JOURNEY of print compeition, I wish more photographers could understand the concept that print competition is a true structured journey to personal excellence in photography.....the rewards continue LONG after the degree or degrees are earned.
We are finding with many, many younger, and less experienced members ... See More that they are very uncomfortable with the cost factor of print competition, and the "busyiness" induced by their overshooting, that they are not grasping the value of the personal committment and process....also, the long term factor, its not something than be acquired with the click of a button, and a wave of the wand....time is the commodity of this century....O.K., "nuff of my soapbox.

Serena Parente Charlebois (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=693435862) Sam, thank you for posting this discussion. It's been very interesting hearing the input from so many sources and for that matter posing the questions to myself.
Carol, I am in 100% complete agreement with you.

Teri Quance (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=832793558) I am so thankful for print competition. It keeps me constantly striving to achieve greater results... reaching for that highest peak. Cost can be a factor, but return is so much greater. The time it takes (as Carol says) to the personal commitment of the process can be so much more debilitating than the financial draws. But, what in life worth achieving is easy. It takes intentionality... in other words, Just Dive In!

Jan Eklof (http://www.facebook.com/jeklof) I have learned so much through competition, my mentors have helped me to grow and to view my photos differently. Now I always have competition in mind when I shoot and it makes you more selective. Get input from others. They see your photos differently and can point things out. Saves you money when you print.

KirkDarling
02-28-2010, 03:14 AM
Unfortunately we can either spread partial information and get chastized for not having complete info or we can wait till all details are set in stone and get chastized because we didn't give out preliminary info. Either way somebody is not going to be happy.

Or give complete information at one point in planning and get chastised because an inevitable change occurs by the time of implementation.

Or suffer through endless nits and gripes about the plans all along the way.

Michael_Black
02-28-2010, 07:11 PM
I see incredible advantages of a digital only competition. Many of us because of the travel involved may not be able to attended a print competition, but imagine if you will being able to view the competition via the internet, see the image on your screen and hear the judges comments on your home computer.

Mark_Levesque
02-28-2010, 07:13 PM
You can do that with prints, too.

John_Metcalfe
03-01-2010, 05:15 AM
You can do that with prints, too.

Really?

Live?

Even if not live that would be KOOL...

Mark_Levesque
03-01-2010, 01:22 PM
Marc Benjamin shared a link with his (affiliate?) judging last year or the year before in which we could watch the print comp over the internet. It was very cool.

Jeff_Dachowski
03-01-2010, 01:47 PM
Marc Benjamin shared a link with his (affiliate?) judging last year or the year before in which we could watch the print comp over the internet. It was very cool.
Marc's comp was his state comp. Regionals are not currently allowed to be recorded.

Jeff

Mark_Levesque
03-01-2010, 01:53 PM
Thanks, Jeff.

Michael_Gan
03-01-2010, 02:43 PM
California hosts the Western Regionals every other year, and it was this year. Normal programing will resume next year;)

John_Metcalfe
03-01-2010, 05:59 PM
Normal is overrated.

Never really been there, but I hear it's nice. (rumor)

John_Derry
04-22-2010, 10:33 PM
I asked this in the ATE forum, but I think it would be useful information here, as well, if someone can provide the answer...

I'm entering the EI competition digitally this year. When entering via prints, you must provide a permission from the original photographer if it is not your own image. However, the digital guidelines provide no reference to providing such permission. Where/how do I supply this if I'm entering digitally?

I don't want to submit my images only to find out later I was disqualified for not providing permission from the original photographer.

-john

Rick_Massarini
04-23-2010, 12:27 AM
John,
I've forwarded your question to the PEC Administrator, Jim Dingwell. I gave him the location of the thread on the forum so he may respond back to you on this thread or if he answers me directly, I'll copy his response and post it here for you...

Keith_A_Howe
04-23-2010, 02:50 AM
Rick, John also posted this question under Ask the Experts and I posted the answer from Jim Dingwell on that thread earlier today.

Keith

Rick_Massarini
04-23-2010, 03:55 AM
I'll send Ding a note to ignore my earlier note. Thanks.