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Keith_A_Howe
09-15-2008, 03:17 AM
I been on the phone with Jeff. I know you guys know. So start posting
Keith

Mark_Levesque
09-15-2008, 04:09 AM
Ok, I'll be the sacrificial lamb to go first. I decided that I really need to focus on using client work in print comp. Sadly, with the new studio, I have not had the time to actually work up any images and really prepare in any real way at all for our regional. Nevertheless, I just couldn't bring myself to bypass my regional, so I spent a full two hours last Tuesday night creating 4 comp images. When I was done, I said to the people to whom I showed the images "it is a case of 77s." I couldn't have called it better. 76,77,77,78

I submitted 3 seniors and a pitcher of tulips that my wife begged me to enter. I am not the least bit displeased with the results. Would it have been nice to get cheap blue? Yes. But I didn't expect to and I am not disappointed. I think my images got the scores they deserved. When the prints showed up, I looked at them and thought "what were you thinking?" on a couple of them. With better treatment, I might have snuck two of them into the merit category, but they would have been squeaking over the bar. I fully expect to have a much more serious entry for NH in the spring.

I saw my first 100 awarded in person today. That was pretty interesting. I'll be honest. I thought it looked better through the binoculars than it did up close. I really think 90 would have been a more appropriate score, but I did love the print and especially the paper it was printed on. I will let Jeff toot his own horn, and Carolle as well. But yay them. There were some really awesome and inspiring prints that I am sure will be in the loan collection next year. But some others that I thought the panel got carried away with, awarding scores that I cannot reconcile. All in all it was a very good competition.

Ok, here are my entries.

Molly's Pitcher 77

http://www.studiomarkemile.com/images/damaskTulips.jpg

The Sky's the Limit 77

http://www.studiomarkemile.com/images/skysLimit.jpg

Ya think? 78

http://www.studiomarkemile.com/images/gina.jpg

On High 76

http://www.studiomarkemile.com/images/onHigh.jpg

These last two I think I could have coaxed additional points with better treatment.

JohnHeckler
09-15-2008, 04:40 AM
I like'em Mark ... sure would like to know the things that held them back specifically, but also agree with the scores. I am still very much in the dark when it comes to 76-83 range. Sometimes I think I know why and other times I shake my head thinking I'll never understand all this LOL :-)

Mark_Levesque
09-15-2008, 11:30 AM
I was only in the room for the last one, and there was no discussion. Looking at it now, I think this is a perfect candidate to be flipped, and her chest needs to be toned down. Additionally, I should have looked for an exposure with a more somber expression. On the high key image, it would have benefited from a key line and I probably should have removed the mole on her neck, and touched up the reflections in her glasses and made sure I retained some texture in her forehead and cheek.

Cassandra_Sullivan
09-15-2008, 01:10 PM
Kudos to you Mark for even sending something in. I didn't even get that far. And totally forgot PPANE was this weekend until I looked at my calendar...I had scheduled sessions anyway. But the weekend was a washout and instead I got all caught up on work!

I do like 'On High' and I agree the expression doesn't really match the mood/toning of the image. A serious look would be more appropriate, I think.

Don_Chick
09-15-2008, 01:17 PM
I need to locate the images on the other computer, but for now I can tell you the numbers...

4-4: 80, 81, 81, 86

Heather_L._Smith
09-15-2008, 01:52 PM
4-4: 80, 81, 81, 86

Okay, so the big question, Mr. Chick... are you a gambler??? Do you send four seals to Nationals next year knowing you'll go 4-4... or do you create something else brilliant between now and then and send non-sealed images to Nationals? mwahahahahahahahaha :)

Oh, and great job, by the way!

Rick_Massarini
09-15-2008, 02:44 PM
Okay, so the big question, Mr. Chick... are you a gambler??? Do you send four seals to Nationals next year knowing you'll go 4-4... or do you create something else brilliant between now and then and send non-sealed images to Nationals? mwahahahahahahahaha :)

Oh, and great job, by the way!

Four Birds in the hand beats none in the bush. Congratulations, Don on an (At Least) a Bronze PTY for 2010 - and you know at least one will go Loan !!

Keith_A_Howe
09-15-2008, 02:48 PM
I saw my first 100 awarded in person today. That was pretty interesting. I'll be honest. I thought it looked better through the binoculars than it did up close. I really think 90 would have been a more appropriate score, but I did love the print and especially the paper it was printed on. . . . But some others that I thought the panel got carried away with, awarding scores that I cannot reconcile. All in all it was a very good competition.




Mark, There are always going to be prints that you do not understand the scores. How long have you been entering? Two years? Or is it three? Give yourself time. Judging is not a skill you aquire in 2 or 3 years. If you want to better understand why prints score where they do, I suggest you take the judging class. I think you would find it eye opening.

Congratulations for entering. I think you have set a good precedent for yourself. If you skip a year because you are busy or don't like your entries or whatever, then it gets easier to skip the next year and the next year. Pushing yourself to enter even when you don't feel like it is pushing yourself to keep striving for your best.

Keith

Keith_A_Howe
09-15-2008, 03:01 PM
I like'em Mark ... sure would like to know the things that held them back specifically, but also agree with the scores. I am still very much in the dark when it comes to 76-83 range. Sometimes I think I know why and other times I shake my head thinking I'll never understand all this LOL :-)

John, I could probably tell you what held Mark's prints from meriting, but he did not ask for CC. I try never to comment unless the maker asks for suggestions. Like D.Craig will often post stuff and say "enjoy" so I know he does not want any critique. He is just wanting to show stuff. So unless someone says something like comments welcome or asks for suggestions, I don't say anything.

Mark, I am not fishing for you to ok my CC. I know you are working hard to do it on your own and that's fine. I just wanted to bring this up again, if someone wants CC they need to ask for it. Otherwise myself and a lot of others don't comment.


Keith

Don_Chick
09-15-2008, 03:22 PM
Okay, so the big question, Mr. Chick... are you a gambler??? Do you send four seals to Nationals next year knowing you'll go 4-4... or do you create something else brilliant between now and then and send non-sealed images to Nationals? mwahahahahahahahaha :)

Oh, and great job, by the way!

Heather, Thank you!
At this point (since the comp is less than 24 hours old) I will send the 4 seals. If something "brilliant" is created between now and next June I'll have a tough decision! :D


- and you know at least one will go Loan !!

I sure hope so as I only need 1 more to get the Imaging Excellence award!


He did not ask for CC. I try never to comment unless the maker asks for suggestions. So unless someone says something like comments welcome or asks for suggestions, I don't say anything. Keith

Very wise man!!! I learned this the real hard way early on. Now I keep my mouth slammed shut until asked. :eek::eek:
Even then I lead with positives before getting into the negatives....

Heather_L._Smith
09-15-2008, 03:22 PM
Four Birds in the hand beats none in the bush. Congratulations, Don on an (At Least) a Bronze PTY for 2010 - and you know at least one will go Loan !!

Hahaha... yes, BUT! I would expect that once you reach a certain level, you have to push yourself in new ways to achieve at the next level. There's a lot of time between now and next June :)

(Don... looks like we were typing at the same time!)

Mark_Levesque
09-15-2008, 03:54 PM
I have said this before, but it probably has been a while, so I would say it bears repeating. ALL of my work is open to CC. Please anyone feel free to tell me how you think I can make any of my images stronger, or things you would have done differently. I am always open to learning. If I had had time, Keith, I would have sent these to you for advice but it was literally last minute when I picked them. I didn't even have time to ask Holly for titles! And I can't send you any for NH or there won't be a quorum, right? (What happens if more than one judge has to recuse? The jury chair votes? Is there a minimum number of panelists?)


Mark, There are always going to be prints that you do not understand the scores. How long have you been entering? Two years? Or is it three? Give yourself time. Judging is not a skill you aquire in 2 or 3 years. If you want to better understand why prints score where they do, I suggest you take the judging class. I think you would find it eye opening.
Yes, it's been 3 years. About 80% of the time, I call it within a point or two from my seat, but occasionally there are images which you can't get the full impact from (or conversely can't see the technical issues with) from where we are. But sometimes even when you get up close you don't see why print A was rewarded and print B was not. Note that I am not including any of my own images in this- they all fell right where expected. But one image of a dead tree gets an 87, and another a 78, and they just don't look anything like two categories apart. Similar lighting, monochrome treatment, composition, sharpness, etc. And I do intend to take a judging class. Not only because I'd like to judge, but I just think it would be generally helpful in my own work.

I did consider not entering, especially after I got the prints back and I could see the flaws up close and personal. But the money was spent at that point. And it even occurred to me to not report back on the results, since they were not flattering like a POTY. ;) But I think it would be misleading to only post good news. And to be honest, I think it's relatively good news that in the course of 2 hours I can pick through client work and prep a full case of above average entries. I know I am not yet the sort of photographer that is so talented and accomplished that he can pull 4 prints in 2 hours and merit them. I don't have that kind of a body of work at this point; it's an effort to make a meritable print. But it is encouraging that my general work is getting better. I am much happier to have my current work represent me than the stuff I did a couple of years ago, which is now cringe-inducing. LOL

So feel free to dissect my prints, which I would have had you do before the fact if I had had time. Do any of them have merit potential, do you think?

Keith_A_Howe
09-15-2008, 04:16 PM
Mark If you are ok with this I will take one of your prints and go through the 12 elements and how they apply to your print. I think it might be educational for people trying to pick prints and understand how those elements apply to thier images. I think it should go on a seperate thread though, so I would need to copy and paste your image.

I remember now that you said that in the past anything you post is open to critique. However there are a lot of people on this forum and it's hard to remember who has said "go for it" and who hasn't. Also as new people are joining every day they might not know that in the past you said you were always open for critique. They might see you image posted and then a bunch of critiques and assume that if they posted the same thing would happen. A lot of people have trouble seperating thier worth as a photographer from the worth of thier one particular image. So if you critique thier image, especially when they didn't ask for it, they take it personal. I just feel like it's a good idea to always say if you want a CC.

Keith

Mark_Levesque
09-15-2008, 04:24 PM
Feel free to start another thread and reference the image from its location on my server. And feel free to edit it to your heart's content. Hopefully you will pick the one with the most potential rather than the one with the most things wrong with it.

StaceyDamon
09-15-2008, 05:57 PM
Thanks for sharing Don and Mark!!! Good job!!

As a wife of a sailor-who is out to sea, I am sadly missing PPANE...I hope you are all having lots-O-fun!!!

Who else has news???

Jane_Lydick_Staid
09-15-2008, 09:37 PM
Aw that stinks Stacey, my husband was in the Navy for 6 years, 4 of those were sea duty.

I went to just the trade show yesterday, I didnt join PPANE this year because I didnt attend NEIPP, but I had a great time seeing all the familiar faces and schmoozing with old freinds. I did sign up for NEIPP for next year though.

Congrats to all the merit winners! I hear Candace got her first and I bet she is hooked now!

Mark_Levesque
09-15-2008, 09:55 PM
She did, and there was no happier person in the hospitality room last night than she. :)

andiegoodman
09-16-2008, 03:20 AM
My files are not on this computer but my scores were:77,78,78,80.

And Candace and I each had a print chosen for the PPANE calendar - Candace had a summer image and I had a winter image. If I can find them, I will post them.

Jeff_Dachowski
09-16-2008, 12:33 PM
OK,
Just to give Candace some props here since she does not post a whole lot.


Not only did Candace get her first print merit, it also earned her a judges choice ribbon from the Jury chair.

Candace I am so happy for you and proud of your accomplishment!!! Congratulations!!!!!!!!



Here is our results:
Jeff 79, 92, 78,80

Carolle 80, 89, 78, 80

Yup, she beat me again!!!

Congratulations to everyone!!!!

Jeff

Cassandra_Sullivan
09-16-2008, 04:01 PM
So - Jeff and Carolle - let's see them!

Oh and of course Candace too!

Jeff_Dachowski
09-16-2008, 04:04 PM
So - Jeff and Carolle - let's see them!

Oh and of course Candace too!


Cassandra,
There is nothing new in those cases. I wish we had something new to share, but we don't. Yes...we are slackers!
Jeff

Cassandra_Sullivan
09-16-2008, 05:18 PM
not as big a slacker as me - you may have noticed no entries from me at all at PPANE...:(

Mark_Levesque
09-16-2008, 05:35 PM
Time to take your .sig a little more seriously. ;)

George_Hawkins
09-18-2008, 12:36 PM
My first PPANE Blue was also a judge's award, and I stupidly did not send it in.
I was a bit younger and uninformed. Congrats to those this year!!!
George

MarilynDillon
09-18-2008, 04:00 PM
Hi everyone - this was my first regional competition and decided to enter new stuff as opposed to stuff from nhppa -- i entered two prints and two albums. the two prints went 80 and 77 and the albums 78 and 79. I learned so much at PPANE - was able to watch a good portion of the judging on Sunday as i had a wedding on saturday. Most of the speakers were outstandinig as well.
Congratulations to all of you! Let's keep raising the bar!
Beloved 80 Heaven Scent 77

Rick_Massarini
09-18-2008, 05:45 PM
Heaven Scent 77

Just a comment about titles. I get the meaning of the title, but I'm seeing it written out. The jurors will only hear the title ANNOUNCED. The title may have thrown the judges for a few seconds trying to figure out the meaning since when they heard the title they probably thought "sent" and not "scent". Heaven scent when announced brings up an image in my head of a newborn baby or something like that. You only have a couple of seconds to get the judges attention with the title, so variations on a theme involving spelling differences that can invoke an entirely different train of thought can work against the print. I learned the title lesson the hard way and am still hearing about it from friends of mine who were judges on the panel when the print came around to be judged - the print was a merit print, but the unclear title confused them - so it didn't hang - so I lost a merit because I was trying to be "cute" with the title.

MarilynDillon
09-18-2008, 11:40 PM
During the print judging this topic actually came up -- one of the judges was talking about the titles - and said that since it is not one of the twelve elements of a merit print that they would never decrease a print's score based on the title -- however, a really good title can improve the "impact" of a print and therefore, the score. That being said....I don't mind if it was "heaven scent" or "heaven sent" -- either way I like it. I do think other factors kept it out of merit category. Will keep that in mind, however, with those words with double meanings. Thanks!

Rick_Massarini
09-19-2008, 12:26 AM
During the print judging this topic actually came up -- one of the judges was talking about the titles - and said that since it is not one of the twelve elements of a merit print that they would never decrease a print's score based on the title -- however, a really good title can improve the "impact" of a print and therefore, the score. That being said....I don't mind if it was "heaven scent" or "heaven sent" -- either way I like it. I do think other factors kept it out of merit category. Will keep that in mind, however, with those words with double meanings. Thanks!

As you said, a confusing title may not keep an extremely strong image out of the merit category, but if the title adds confusion instead of impact, it detracts from that very first element - Impact - at the first moment when the jurors see the image. I have experienced this twice in print competition. The first time, It was a Vietnamese bride in a red dress, so since it was a Vietnamese subject, I used a title in Vietnamese - WRONG THING TO DO - the judges were confused by the title, and it went down in flames - had I just called it "The Lady in Red", it would have hung (or so said the two jurors and a JC who continually rib me about that title). The second one was an image of a martini glass with an olive in it that I entered into a regional competition - the title sort of directed the attention towards the olive in the glass and since the olive was a little out of focus due to the frost and the diffraction of the glass - it didn't hang. I re-entered the print at National (with a genuine Holly Howe title on it that told a better story) and it hung (and it almost went Loan...). So while you're correct that a distracting or confusing title may not keep an extremely strong image from hanging, a good title can add to the impact when it spins around and may help a borderline image to be accepted.

Keith_A_Howe
09-19-2008, 04:00 AM
As you said, a confusing title may not keep an extremely strong image out of the merit category, but if the title adds confusion instead of impact, it detracts from that very first element - Impact - at the first moment when the jurors see the image. I have experienced this twice in print competition. The first time, It was a Vietnamese bride in a red dress, so since it was a Vietnamese subject, I used a title in Vietnamese - WRONG THING TO DO - the judges were confused by the title, and it went down in flames - had I just called it "The Lady in Red", it would have hung (or so said the two jurors and a JC who continually rib me about that title). The second one was an image of a martini glass with an olive in it that I entered into a regional competition - the title sort of directed the attention towards the olive in the glass and since the olive was a little out of focus due to the frost and the diffraction of the glass - it didn't hang. I re-entered the print at National (with a genuine Holly Howe title on it that told a better story) and it hung (and it almost went Loan...). So while you're correct that a distracting or confusing title may not keep an extremely strong image from hanging, a good title can add to the impact when it spins around and may help a borderline image to be accepted.

I try not to let a title take a print out of the merit catagory. With that said a good title can make a huge difference. The title tells the viewer what is important in the image and sets the mood. Lets take Ricks Martini glass for example. When he had a title about the olive it told us the olive is the main element and is important so when it was not sharp it showed weakness in Technical excellence. Now when you change the title to point to the image as a whole "2 martini lunch" if memory serves me (Holly could name it right off) it gives the glass importance and even gives a reason for subtle softness.
Do you see the difference?
Keith

Rick_Massarini
09-19-2008, 04:47 AM
Keith - Actually the title that your Honey gave me was "Two Martini Lunch, Second Course" - since there were two glasses and one was empty. And THANKS AGAIN HOLLY!!! You're the best!!! - (also - congrats about the article in this months's PPA magazine - really cooool) - but I digress...
Keith is dead on target on this - it might not seem so, but the title does make a big difference - in my opinion, titles have had major influence in at least two of my images hanging that probably would not have hung with different titles (and both of those titles came from Holly!!!) - I just wish I had talked with Holly before I dropped that dang Vietnamese name on that print - then I could have said three instead of two !!!

Keith_A_Howe
09-20-2008, 03:45 PM
Rick
Thanks for the kind words about Holly's artical. She is getting request for copies of our price list from all over the country. I will pass your comments on to her. Thanks again
Keith