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Debra_Collins
07-11-2008, 01:10 AM
Opinions please.:)

http://www.waterlilygallery.net/pix/kid.jpg

D._Craig_Flory
07-11-2008, 01:00 PM
Hi Debra;

I like this image. Some things I don't like ... he is too centered. The background would be better if a solid tone. I'd like to see a bit more contrast in the image layer and our left side of the sliding board deeper. I didn't bother to but I suggest also making his pants deeper. Here is how I see it.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i93/DC47/SlidingBoardConquered.jpg

Debra_Collins
07-12-2008, 03:14 PM
http://www.waterlilygallery.net/pix/kis2.jpg

D._Craig_Flory
07-12-2008, 04:31 PM
Hi Debra;

Ok, the first problem is where yiu placed his face. As like in what I posted, you need the subject layer much smaller. Click View > Grid and have it set for rule of thirds. (If you don't already have it for that ... go into Photoshop Prefernces and set like this: Edit > Preferences > Guides, Grids, & Slices > & then set Grid Lines Every 33.1% and Subdivisions 1 )

Set that way and then make the subject layer smaller so his face fits on the 3rd quadrant, or at least close.

Debra_Collins
07-12-2008, 05:13 PM
Craig,
This sounds omminous (which I can't spell) - but very helpful

Problem #2?

I got rid of the lighter areas behind his head. Is that what you meant about a solid background?

oops - Actually in re-reading I think I get it - did you mean the matting? I was bothered by the lines and light spots in the tress right behind his head. Should I put those back?

did I also miss understand the centering part? I added more to the slide at the left to put him off center in the main image.

http://www.waterlilygallery.net/pix/kid3.jpg

D._Craig_Flory
07-12-2008, 06:48 PM
Hi Debra;

I made up something that will hopefully help you with positioning. At the top is your version and mine at the bottom ... only to do with subject layer positioning and after making a solid background. Once you get to understand this I'll try to help with other aspects. Oh, BTW, you images are a bit too big on here. I have to scroll back & forth to see all of them. I post either 10X8's or 8X6.4's. The numbers show quadrant 1, 2, 3, and 4 positions.

Rodney_Ninow
07-12-2008, 10:01 PM
I'm still trying to wrap my head around these offset mats or whatever they are called. I understand the reason, so the main subject is placed on an intersection according to the rule of the thirds, but isn't it kind of cheating? I mean, I was taught to compose my shots in camera for the rule of the thirds. It seems with the offset mats, I can just compose willy nilly, and just "fix" it with an offset mat... ?

Heidi_Theriault
07-12-2008, 10:48 PM
Rodney,

Even when a subject is placed on the thirds in the original image, it can be emphasized by an offset mat with the subject still on the thirds line. Rhythm. Repetition for emphasis.

And... don't we all cheat a little by Photoshopping, re-cropping and fancy title-ing our images to impress the judges? It's a game, really.

Debra_Collins
07-13-2008, 12:14 AM
I understand the rule of thirds. My problem is I forget to look at the whole 16 x 20 as a composition and just concentrate on the main image. I get to the end and throw the image on a mat and go. Have to slow down.:o

Keith_A_Howe
07-13-2008, 06:19 PM
The best thing is to get the composition the way you want it on the image itself, then follow through with the composition on the presentation. This creates a more dynamic impact to the image.
Keith

Debra_Collins
07-13-2008, 06:22 PM
The best thing is to get the composition the way you want it on the image itself, then follow through with the composition on the presentation. This creates a more dynamic impact to the image.
Keith

That makes sense. Then the image stands on its own as well as in the larger composition.

Keith_A_Howe
07-13-2008, 06:32 PM
Debra
I like the background bars and highlights fixed. With that said, Make sure the work is done well and there is no cloneing tracks or artifacting in your artwork (these files are too small to tell one way or the other) as poor artwork will hurt any image. I like the image but I feel that it will be stuck in the above average catagory because of lighting issues. First it is broad light. Second the brightest areas in the image are Kicker light hitting his upper back jaw, the next brightest areas are his chin, under side of his nose and parts of the slide.
I feel like I am seeing a line around his shoulders and hair from work but it is hard to tell on this file.
JMOs Keith

Rodney_Ninow
07-13-2008, 09:35 PM
Debra was this shot with all available light? Any modifiers?

John_Throneburg
07-13-2008, 11:35 PM
quad means four and in mathematics the quadrants of a plane are formed by drawing two intersecting lines, usually a horizontal line (x-axis) and a vertical line (y-axis) and the resulting four sections called quadrants are numbered as shown below.

John_Throneburg
07-13-2008, 11:36 PM
quandrants

D._Craig_Flory
07-14-2008, 12:27 AM
quandrants

Hi John;

You added roman numerals in the wrong positions. As I showed ... the 1st is bottom left, 2nd is top left, 3rd is top right, and 4th is bottom right.

Debra_Collins
07-14-2008, 12:27 AM
Debra was this shot with all available light? Any modifiers?

Nope - all available light. This little guy moved too fast for anything else

John_Throneburg
07-14-2008, 02:03 AM
You added roman numerals in the wrong positions. As I showed ... the 1st is bottom left, 2nd is top left, 3rd is top right, and 4th is bottom right.

I've never seen the quadrants numbered the way you have described (not mathematically correct for sure). Is that something photographers have agreed upon?

Keith_A_Howe
07-14-2008, 04:03 AM
I've never seen the quadrants numbered the way you have described (not mathematically correct for sure). Is that something photographers have agreed upon?

John This is a composition diagram. It is not intended to reference math or to be mathmatically accurate. The use of the word quadrants is strictly to reference the four intersections of the rule of thirds. These intersections have been refered to as quadrants by a lot of photographers and artists over the years. I am pretty sure my instructors in college art classes even refered to them that way. I will say that I have seen them numbered differently (which point is 1,2,3 and 4) by different people. I personally try to refer to them as the "intersection of thirds" when talking to people simply to reinforce the exactly what I mean. Some photographers prefer to say quadrant. I suspect where the usage came from is becaue there are - as you pointed out - four quadrants in a plane and there are four points where the division into thirds intersect. Hope this helps to clear up the quadrant issue.
Keith

Rodney_Ninow
07-14-2008, 04:04 AM
I have never ever heard of these quadrants! Countless books, magazines, 3 years of photo in high school, 6 photo classes at junior college level in photography and 5 more at university, no one ever mentioned quadrants. Rule of thirds, yes, quadrants, no.

Keith_A_Howe
07-14-2008, 04:21 AM
Rodney, what I am trying to say is some photographers will use the term quadrant to refer to those four intersections in the rule of thirds. It's not something new or different. It's just a different word for the same thing. Like some people say soda and some people say pop.

Keith

Rodney_Ninow
07-14-2008, 04:27 AM
Keith, you posted your explanation while i was composing mine, so I didn't actually respond directly to what you said. But your explanation was helpful. Thanks!

John_Throneburg
07-14-2008, 05:12 AM
Thanks Keith for you explanation.

I have a mathematics background so it was confusing & inaccurate to me for someone to refer to one of the 4 points as a quadrant when in actuality a quadrant is all of the area in 1/4 of the image. If someone said place the eyes in the upper right quadrant, it could be taken to mean anywhere in the upper right quadrant.

Since there are 4 points from the rule of thirds and each one lies in a different quadrant, perhaps it became common to refer to one of the four points just by the quadrant number it was in. If this has been widely accepted, there should be a standard for numbering the quadrants. And there may be, I just haven't run across it.

Don_Chick
07-14-2008, 12:36 PM
TIf this has been widely accepted, there should be a standard for numbering the quadrants. And there may be, I just haven't run across it.

There are no standards in this industry, it drives me crazy! :eek: :eek:

Main light, key light...

Accent light, garlic light, kicker light, separation light....

etc.....

Keith_A_Howe
07-14-2008, 01:08 PM
If this has been widely accepted, there should be a standard for numbering the quadrants. And there may be, I just haven't run across it.

We are talking about artists here, not mathmaticians or engineers or accountants. I doubt you will ever get a group of artistic types to to be precise or standardized about anything. Like I said before - do you call it soda, pop or a soft drink?

Keith

Jeff_Dachowski
07-14-2008, 01:42 PM
To add further confusion, let me point out that many time I have heard people talk about placing a point of interest in the upper left, or lower right quadrant. This would refer to the intersecting lines that live in that particular quadrant. Ie, points of power are largely considered to be in the upper right and lower right quadrant.

Jeff

Debra_Collins
07-14-2008, 04:53 PM
Debra
I like the background bars and highlights fixed. With that said, Make sure the work is done well and there is no cloneing tracks or artifacting in your artwork (these files are too small to tell one way or the other) as poor artwork will hurt any image. I like the image but I feel that it will be stuck in the above average catagory because of lighting issues. First it is broad light. Second the brightest areas in the image are Kicker light hitting his upper back jaw, the next brightest areas are his chin, under side of his nose and parts of the slide.
I feel like I am seeing a line around his shoulders and hair from work but it is hard to tell on this file.
JMOs Keith

So is broad light bad or just bad for this image? And is the problem with this one the broad light or the combination of the broad light with the bright spots?

Is there something I could have done at the time to get a better shot?

Rodney_Ninow
07-14-2008, 05:05 PM
Like I said before - do you call it soda, pop or a soft drink?

KeithSoda pop :D

Keith_A_Howe
07-15-2008, 01:05 AM
So is broad light bad or just bad for this image? And is the problem with this one the broad light or the combination of the broad light with the bright spots?

Is there something I could have done at the time to get a better shot?

Debra
Broad light is not necessarily bad it just isn't as flattering to most faces. On this lo-res file I can't tell for sure, but I believe you have handled the bright spots well. To me it is more a problem with the light direction, coupled with the broad light putting more emphasis on the chin and underside of the nose and not the eyes and the mask of the face. As far as what you could have done to at the time to get a better shot, I would suggest using a reflector.
I'm not saying this image is a bad shot by any means. I believe it will be in the above-average category. You had ask if it was merit worthy, and I believe it will be just a bit short of that goal. Keep in mind that it is not an easy thing to pick out 4 images that will reach the magic merit catagory.
Good Luck
Keith

Debra_Collins
07-15-2008, 01:22 AM
So this isn't hopeless? :D

You have to realize you are talking to the classic over-achiever here. I fully expected to have 6 out of 6 merits last year or not enter at all. Everyone had to convince me that it wasn't possible. (I did learn a lot though)

Keith_A_Howe
07-15-2008, 02:14 AM
I fully expected to have 6 out of 6 merits last year or not enter at all. Everyone had to convince me that it wasn't possible. (I did learn a lot though)
Debra
I don't even want to tell you how many years I have not merited. All four images. The reason we enter these things is for the last line of your statement above.
Good Luck
Keith

Debra_Collins
07-15-2008, 02:47 AM
Debra
I don't even want to tell you how many years I have not merited. All four images. The reason we enter these things is for the last line of your statement above.
Good Luck
Keith

Very true - I'll try to keep that in mind

John_Metcalfe
07-15-2008, 03:31 PM
Debra,

I have watched this discussion for some time now. Read over the analogies, comments and critiques.

The question was is it "merit" worthy...

My opinion: Not quite yet.

First, it is underlit and after the shot it is hard to make it anything else but. Being underlit, the bottom of the print is brighter than the top. Though fixable, it has left a loss of detail in the hair. Now some may argue that is what makes it unique. (maybe so) But is it enough?

Second, the subject is set in a broadlight situation. Not always a bad thing, but in this case the brightest areas of the face are the chin and his left cheek, not the eyes as you would want. Is this somewhat fixable? Yes, but I believe you have better work. It's there hidden in your files all you have to do is find it.

Debra_Collins
07-15-2008, 05:34 PM
It's there hidden in your files all you have to do is find it.


This brings up something I have been wondering about for some time. The only things I have entered and merited have been chosen by someone else. I can't seem to decided what is good and what isn't because I either have an emotional attachment or don't see it as the right type of thing for competition. I used to have someone I could send several images to and have them weed out the mess but don't have access to them any more.

I have 5 or 6 shots of Tristan that I like but chose this one because I liked the lighting on his face and his personality came through. The others seem to just qualify as things his mother will like. I'm learning the lighting and understand now what is wrong with this but maybe I am wrong about the others being viable for competition?

How do y'all decided what will work and what won't without showing 50 million images to someone else? I can see that experience will help but how do you get there without someone to weed out the mess at the begining?

Debra_Collins
07-15-2008, 05:35 PM
Oh and thanks John. I understand what you are saying and I think Keith was saying the same thing. I have decided this will work for a filler in the case if I can come up with 5 more (FPP uses 6 per case)

Debra_Collins
07-15-2008, 05:43 PM
As far as what you could have done to at the time to get a better shot, I would suggest using a reflector.
Keith


While I'm on a roll here - next question. I am doing pretty well with understanding how to find good light but I am still confused about reflectors. What exactly would the reflector do in this situation?

Guessing here - the light that is there is reflecting off the slide onto the bottom of his face so I need to get light higher - more into his eyes?

Keith_A_Howe
07-16-2008, 12:56 PM
I can't seem to decided what is good and what isn't because I either have an emotional attachment or don't see it as the right type of thing for competition.
How do y'all decided what will work and what won't without showing 50 million images to someone else? I can see that experience will help but how do you get there without someone to weed out the mess at the begining?

Debra
It is hard to pick your own images. First try to take all your emotions and attachments and seperate your self from them as much a you can when looking at your work for comp. Look at the images carefully considering light direction, composition, attention to detail, clothing and the keys (areas with in the image that are a dramaticly lighter or darker than the overall feel of the image). Start with an action that will copy the file into a "possible comp" folder. Then take a look at the images you have in there and compare them to each other, which ones stand out from the others. How much work will it take to get it to competition leval, is it worth it or would a different image be a better choice. Move the top several into a subfolder for final consideration. Show these to trusted Masters or friends and get thier opinions.

Hope this helps.


While I'm on a roll here - next question. I am doing pretty well with understanding how to find good light but I am still confused about reflectors. What exactly would the reflector do in this situation?

Guessing here - the light that is there is reflecting off the slide onto the bottom of his face so I need to get light higher - more into his eyes?

Good Guess! In most situations - even in pretty good lighting I will use my reflector to kiss just a little across the image, adding light where I want it. The key is to use it like spice, a little bit in just the right place makes all the difference in the world. Remember - You can add or subract light with a reflector.
Good luck Debra.
Keith

Debra_Collins
07-16-2008, 01:13 PM
Start with an action that will copy the file into a "possible comp" folder. Then take a look at the images you have in there and compare them to each other, which ones stand out from the others. How much work will it take to get it to competition leval, is it worth it or would a different image be a better choice. Move the top several into a subfolder for final consideration. Show these to trusted Masters or friends and get thier opinions.

That's a good idea, Keith. I have been concentrating on one and then moving onto another so I tend to get tunnel vision. I also get frustrated when that one doesn't live up to what it should and give up on the whole process. I'll try this instead.

Thank you