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View Full Version : My results (PPW state) and CC please



Julie_DeGuia
04-15-2008, 06:07 AM
I just picked up my case from the PPW state competition (held April 5th). I was on vacation during the convention and print competition so even though this was my first time entering I still have not seen the judging live.

There were a couple comments from photograhers who were there. They said it was an all male panel and that they were very harsh on the scoring. Maternity and babies in general did not do very well and the highest two scores overall were a 92 and an 86. Apparently a couple of the judges were consistently (very) low in their scores so other judges were intentionally scoring 5 points (or more) higher then what they thought it should score to bring the average up. This is just what I heard and it does not give me confidence that my prints would merit at the national level. Judging is already fairly subjective and to throw in one judge trying to compensate for another just makes me wonder even more.

I would love comments on how to improve these more for the national level or if there are one or two I should replace. The one titled "Baby Doll" I was not happy with how it printed and was surprised at the score of 80. This is one for which I was told one of the judges scored it WAY HIGH (like a 99) to bring the average up. By the way, the merit level for our state starts at 76 and higher.

Question on the National Competition. For some reason I thought this was done at IUSA in January. However, I was told there was a submission in June for judging in July? Could someone please clarify. Thanks.

Anyway, here are my prints and the scores.

Almost There - 82
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee161/jdgphotography/Forum%20Sharing/PregnantCompetition3-resize.jpg?t=1208238715

Standing Guard - 80
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee161/jdgphotography/Forum%20Sharing/SunsetCompetition-resize.jpg?t=1208238760

Baby Doll - 80
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee161/jdgphotography/Forum%20Sharing/RoryCompetition-resize.jpg?t=1208238797

Pascale - 79
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee161/jdgphotography/Forum%20Sharing/PascalePrintCompetition2-resize.jpg?t=1208238829

By the way, I posted all these for CC on this forum and the replies I recieved helped a bunch. Thanks everyone!

Julie

Keith_A_Howe
04-15-2008, 06:23 AM
so other judges were intentionally scoring 5 points (or more) higher then what they thought it should score to bring the average up.
And how do they know this? Did those judges publically announce they were scoring higher to compenstae for the judges they thought were too low? There are all kinda of theories & rumors that get thrown around at competitions. I sincerely doubt this happened. It's one of those statemets that get tossed off by someone as "I bet so and so is raising their score to compensate" and then gets repeated until people assume it is a fact. Unless you had a completely inexperienced panel I am willing to bet this did not happen. For someone to say a judge or panel of judges did this is actually saying that person/persons had no integrity.

IUSA and the print show does take place in January. The judging for inclusion in that show occurs in July.

Keith

Julie_DeGuia
04-15-2008, 06:45 AM
Keith -
I know you are a judge and I certainly didn't mean to offend you or any other judges for that matter. I am just taking what I heard and trying to determine if the scores I recieved were accurate and then based on that if these are the prints I should sumbit for the National Competition.

Another photographer said that my print titled "Baby Doll" recieved a 99 from one of the judges which clearly it is not a 99 so I can only assume (yes I realize it is just assuming) that it was given to raise the score.

Since I was not there I will refrain from making any more comments about the judging, but I would still be interested in thoughts on my prints and possible results if submitted at the National level.

Thanks for your comment and answer to my question.
Julie

Heather_L._Smith
04-15-2008, 12:07 PM
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I have run the computer at state print comp before - and unless you're hovering over the person running that machine or standing directly behind that computer monitor, or you're staring at the judges' fingers when they punch in that number, there's no way anyone could know what the individual judges scored.

Julie - honestly, the only way to know is to send them. If you think you have better, then send what you think is your absolute best. Every panel is going to be different - a print that scores an 80 at state may score completely different - one way or the other - at nationals. I would recommend going through a regional if you're concerned. Generally, the level of experience in the judges is higher at a regional that at a state competition (generally...).

Of these four, I still think Almost There is the strongest. Standing Guard is very interesting, too. I'm as drawn to the last image, and I know you got a lot of feedback on that one before. Take that for what it's worth - I still have not sent prints to nationals because I'm a big chicken and don't think anything has been worth the trip yet... so, it's only my humble opinion that I have to share... well, that and being able to see a lot more in someone else's prints than my own. :)

John_Metcalfe
04-15-2008, 12:11 PM
Heather and Keith can correct me if I'm wrong, a judge gives his score before commenting in a challenge and gives a tell to his next score before submitting. That's the only time I know of.

Don_Chick
04-15-2008, 12:19 PM
Another photographer said that my print titled "Baby Doll" recieved a 99 from one of the judges which clearly it is not a 99 so I can only assume (yes I realize it is just assuming) that it was given to raise the score.


If it received a 99 then there would have been an automatic challange (10 points off the average) with that judge leading the charge to get the score higher.
Then everyone in the room would have heard that it was scored a 99 by one on the panel... did that happen?

Keith_A_Howe
04-15-2008, 12:20 PM
Julie, I did not mean you offended me. I knew this was your first competition and maybe you are not aware how rumors always swirl around. Recently on another thread there were rumors about competition stated as fact. When I see stuff that I know cannot possibly be true, I want to make sure that people understand it. For your print to average an 80, that means that the total cummulative score had to be 400. So if one judge gave it a 99, the rest of the panel had to all give it about a 75.25. (99+75+75+75+76=400) If one judge had been that far off on scores I am sure the print would have been challenged. It would have been an automatic challenge because one score was more than 10 points away from the average. Also when a judge scores a print they have to be ready to defend the score they gave. For a judge to score your print a 99, they needed to be able to back up that score. It is a cute print but I think we all know it's not a 99. So I am extremely dubious that any judge would have punched in a 99 that they couldn't justify. The scenario you gave just doesn't happen. The only time I have seen something similar is when a judge meant to punch in a particular score and hit the wrong numbers on the scoring machine. That is pure typo and gets corrected right away. It has nothing to do with a judge artificially raising or lowering their score to effect the final outcome. Plus no judge would know from the first print that another judge is in their opinion "too low" Judges do not see or know what each other judge scores, unless there is a challenge and in discussion they have to say what they scored. So this would take several challenges before anyone decided for themselves that another judge was too low and they were going to start overscoring. How would you feel about your prints that got scored prior to that point? Would you feel it was fair? Some panels are tougher than others, but if they stay consistantly tough through the day then everybody gets a fair shake. If they decide halfway through to start artificially raising scores, it's not fair to the first prints that went through. Regardless of what anyone thinks, judges are out there to give each maker the fairset shake. They also know if they pull a stunt like you described, word will get around and they will not be asked to judge anywhere. There are just too many reasons why what you were told happened doesn't add up.
Keith

Angela_Lawson
04-15-2008, 02:14 PM
Keith,

I have been following the Print Competition thread since I joined the forum (even though I don't feel ready to enter anything), and have learned a tremendous amount from everyone that gives input. I just wanted to say that I appreciate all the time you take to explain things, and wanted to let you know that I'm really impressed that you can still help others during a trying time of your own. My thoughts and prayers will be with you today, as your father has surgery, and pray that all will go well.

Michael_Barton
04-15-2008, 02:37 PM
Julia, it appears that your competition was not judged by an affiliate panel. I would say that if you walked away with 3 80+ prints for your first judging, I'd recommend being happy. That doesn't happen often and you should be proud.

It's always interesting when people complain about panels. There's a reason there are 5 judges and an alternate. I have worked print committee many times and have also been on a panel. Even on a panel it would be difficult to know that judges have an agenda. In order to be affective, a rediculously high score would have to be given. Automatic challenges always occur with a 10 point discrepancy. It's funny that no one ever complains when a panel appears to be scoring high!

Since this is your first competition, know there are ALWAYS rumors and they are rarely if ever true. I am sure the next statement is not going to win me any friends, but hey here goes. It's far easier to blame judges for their lack of judgement than to blame our own. Typically the people that are complaining are the ones that never merit. Sorry to say. Since you had 3 80+s please don't stoop to this level!

All this said, nationals is a WHOLE new ball game. In my experience a lot of scores from a non-affilliate panel don't hold up at the national level. At the same time, there are a lot of 79's that end up going loan.

Don_Chick
04-15-2008, 03:52 PM
It's far easier to blame judges for their lack of judgment than to blame our own.


1st thing I learned/realized after I started judging..... my images (from past comps) got the scores they deserved!!

Julie_DeGuia
04-15-2008, 03:56 PM
Keith -
Thanks for your extended explanation. I appreciate you taking the time.

Michael -
You are the first one to comment on my scores. Thank you for noticing and yes, I am proud. However, when I picked up my case from another photographer yesterday and looked at my scores, I asked how the competition went. The information (whether true, false or somewhere inbetween) I posted above is what I was told by someone who attended the judging. Also knowing (from what I have read here) that state comps are generally judged a bit higher than a regional or national competition, three of my prints probably wouldn't cut it at the next level. Is it wrong to set my standard for the national level? I was not complaining, just trying to figure out the ebb and flow of these competition issues to get to that next level. I think you out of most would understand the desire to shoot for only the best!! :-) Also, this competition stuff is expensive and I want to get it right as quickly as possible! Ha, ha.

I do wish I could have attended and seen it for myself..... then I could have made my own conclusions and have more confidence in what to enter in the next level.

Thanks for the comments. Any others on improving my prints would be appreciated.

Julie

Keith_A_Howe
04-16-2008, 03:09 AM
Thanks for the comments. Any others on improving my prints would be appreciated.



Julie, I did not comment on what you could do to improve your prints because either I or someone else had commented on all of these before. I think they all look much better than the first versions of each that you had posted. Sometimes you just have to accept that you have improved a print as much as you can and there is nothing else you can do raise the scores. In essence you have "maxed out" the potential of the images. (Without seeing the actual prints which can change things) I feel you are there on these four prints.

I understand that print competition is expensive, but the majority of the members here who are Master's did so with film. A print case cost me about $800-$1000 to produce with traditional film, mounting and artwork. So the $30-$40 a piece now days, plus your time, seems inexpensive to me. If it was cheap or easy to do well, nobody would place any value on the end result. If it's worth having, it's worth investing time and money for. You need to view the money spent as an investment in your education and progress as a photographer.

You are right, you should be proud of what you accomplished with this case. Congratulations. I am afraid that the discussion about judging got me off track about the accolades you deserve.

Keith

Dave_Cisco
04-16-2008, 03:28 AM
1st thing I learned/realized after I started judging..... my images (from past comps) got the scores they deserved!!

You too?:D
I don't impress me nearly as much as I used to.:D :D

Keith_A_Howe
04-16-2008, 03:38 AM
You too?:D
I don't impress me nearly as much as I used to.:D :D

And I bet your parents got smarter when you got older also? ;)
Keith

Dave_Cisco
04-16-2008, 04:00 AM
And I bet your parents got smarter when you got older also? ;)
Keith

Couldn't believe how much they learned while I was away at college.:D

Noelle_Zaleski
04-16-2008, 08:32 AM
I think you did great! I was also unable to attend my print scoring but I will say my prints did score in the order i thought they would. Meaning I knew which image was my strongest and so on. With that said i am not dissapointed. I also know from listening to others that the National level is a whole other ball game and you really need to have the WOW factor.

JohnHeckler
04-16-2008, 07:35 PM
Judges have also been known to "fat finger" a score every once in awhile too. Just to be clear, by "fat finger", I mean unintentionally press the wrong key ... and then they ask for the machines to be reset and they all rescore.