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Derek_Alvarez
03-27-2008, 05:26 PM
I wanted to Start this to help open a conversation about how this whole process works.

As I stated in my other thread, I sat and watched WPPA (Wisconsin) Print Competition, I set so I could see the Judges score.

What I did see was a wide spread of scores, So You May Ask WHY?
it is one of my favorite question.
and as Keith and Michael have stated it's because it is "subjective "

So what does that mean?

Before I go any farther Let me say this
Some of what I might say here may appear Negative to the Process But it IS NOT my intention! See I've seen as have soo many other here print competition for Many years (25) and I've heard many complaints from those who have enter on how or why something happen.
So lets get to the Nitty Gritty here and ask some of this question .


AS Keith said Comp is Personal, First to that Maker for their creation
and also to the Judges for their time, effort and experience .

So if it is Subjective what does that mean .
If Judges are trained and tests to do this, by what Standards are they held ?

Here are a few Questions that where discussed in WPPA
How is it one Judge scored and image 99 and the other scored it 77
(Yes that did happen 3 times) then more important How did it get Challenged up to A perfect 100!

Why would a Judge would scored an image 83-86 not challenges a print that got a 78 (happen ALL day)

So below are the 12 elements a judge should be looking for,
Now the question I have is How many Should it meet to Flight
Always 12 , 9 or above Best 2 what is the standard!

Now let All keep in mind this is to help us all grow .

And as Jack always says A rising tide raises all Boat,
To which I'll add(being for Florida) And one good hurricane can sink them all!


So the Floor is Open:D




1# Impact is the sense one gets upon viewing an image for the first time. Compelling images evoke laughter, sadness, anger, pride, wonder or another intense emotion.
2# Creativity is the external expression of the imagination of the maker by using the medium to convey an idea, message or thought.
3# Style is defined in a number of ways as it applies to a creative image. It might be defined by a specific genre or simply be recognizable as the characteristics of how a specific artist applies light to a subject. It can impact an image in a positive manner when the subject matter and the style are appropriate for each other, or it can have a negative effect when they are at odds.
4# Composition is important to the design of an image, bringing all of the visual elements together in concert to express the purpose of the image. Proper composition holds the viewer in the image and prompts the viewer to look where the creator intends. Effective composition can be pleasing or disturbing, depending on the intent of the image maker.
5# Print Presentation affects an image by giving it a finished look. The mats and borders used should support and enhance the image, not distract from it.
6# Center of Interest is the point or points on the image where the maker wants the viewer to stop as they view the image. There can be primary and secondary centers of interest. Occasionally there will be no specific center of interest, when the entire scene collectively serves as the center of interest.
7# Lighting—the use and control of light—refers to how dimension, shape and roundness are defined in an image. Whether the light applied to an image is manmade or natural, proper use of it should enhance an image.
8# Subject Matter should always be appropriate to the story being told in an image.
9# Color Balance supplies harmony to an image. An image in which the tones work together, effectively supporting the image, can enhance its emotional appeal. Color balance is not always harmonious and can be used to evoke diverse feelings for effect.
10# Technical excellence is the print quality of the image itself as it is presented for viewing. Sharpness, exposure, printing, mounting and correct color all speak to the qualities of the physical print.
11# Technique is the approach used to create the image. Printing, lighting, posing, film choice, paper selection and more are part of the technique applied to an image.
12# Story Telling refers to the image’s ability to evoke imagination. One beautiful thing about art is that each viewer might collect his own message or read her own story in an image.

Todd_Reichman
03-27-2008, 05:37 PM
Here's a question i have about scoring. I just sat through the WPPI judging. Regardless of all the differences between the two competitions/organizations, one thing that struck me was that WPPI judges are instructed to start with 100 and deduct points for issues throughout the image. Sorta like presuming innocence. Is this how PPA judges are instructed to approach a print?

- trr

Derek_Alvarez
03-27-2008, 07:09 PM
Interesting approach !

Dan_Leary
03-27-2008, 07:23 PM
Here's a question i have about scoring. I just sat through the WPPI judging. Regardless of all the differences between the two competitions/organizations, one thing that struck me was that WPPI judges are instructed to start with 100 and deduct points for issues throughout the image. Sorta like presuming innocence. Is this how PPA judges are instructed to approach a print?

- trr

I think that's how it used to be... but I think they changed it.

Anne_LeBouton
03-27-2008, 07:31 PM
Yes, the PPA and affiliates all judge by starting at 100 and subtracting points. I'm guessing WPPI based their judging on PPAs since PPA has been around longer.

I think I know the print Derek is talking about that had such a wide range of scores to start with. I wasn't there for much of the judging but I think have a good idea why it scored like it did initially and was brought up by challenging. The image was different. One judge, who scored it a 99 loved it. The other judge, who scored it a 77 didn't understand it. Such a wide range of scores is an automatic challenge for a reason. It means one of the judges missed something (either good or bad) about the image and it needs to be talked about and reevaluated. During the discussion, each judge is allowed to present their views on why (or why not) an image deserve a different score. If the challenging judge does a good job of persauding the others they were in error and showing them what they missed, the print's score should change.

Derek_Alvarez
03-27-2008, 07:47 PM
Actually Anne ,

it happen on ALL four of that artist's images!

What got me was the same thing happen 4 times, first scores
84,87,91,85
and after 37mins on the first it was finally scored95, next went to 100
then the next again to 100 then the last 98.
Total time for Challenging 2hour .!

Now understand I loved the images and would have been in the 90's myself but......

D._Craig_Flory
03-27-2008, 07:58 PM
Hi Derek;

For anyone new to competition ... the Dirty Dozen are not weighted equal. First of all, not all images will have all 12 of the points. And certain of the 12 are far more important like impact. So, an image could be lacking in one area but a more impact and story telling could keep it above 80.

In PPA, any judge can call for a challenge at any time. There is an automatic challenge when one of the 5 scores is 10 or more points from the combined score.

Derek_Alvarez
03-27-2008, 08:49 PM
Can a judge Challenge more than one time Per image?

David_A._Lottes
03-27-2008, 09:13 PM
The twelve elements are (more like like guidelines)
*insert picture of Pirate*
IMPACT is worth 99%


Dog gone you Derek!!!!


I was trying so hard to be good. :(

Anne_LeBouton
03-27-2008, 09:18 PM
Can a judge Challenge more than one time Per image?

Yes. I've seen it happen before where a judge challenges, it's rescored but not as high as the judge wanted and a while later, the same judge will ask the print be brought back and scored again. Sometimes, by doing this a judge will wear the other judges down to the point where they will just rescore the print at the level the other judge wants so as not to have go through yet another challenge on it.

Derek_Alvarez
03-27-2008, 09:32 PM
Well I saw What I though Was Strong arm/ Brow beating happing on All four Images even the Moderator seem to be PUSHING for a 100
It was quite dishearting.

Now as I said I'd have gone in the 90's when it turned but I really doubt if I'd have said 78 You would have ever moved me to 100.
but it happen twice.

David_A._Lottes
03-27-2008, 09:41 PM
Let me pathetically defend myself by saying I spent thirty plus grand on a fine arts degree that taught me one thing I can remember.


PRESENTATION IS NINE TENTHS

Derek_Alvarez
03-27-2008, 09:45 PM
So dave how'd that work out for you:D

Todd_Reichman
03-27-2008, 09:46 PM
Let me pathetically defend myself by saying I spent thirty plus grand on a fine arts degree that taught me one thing I can remember.


PRESENTATION IS NINE TENTHS

That's why I asked in another thread about the inset/keyline presentation convention that seems to be expected in PPA comp? Why is this so prevalent? I mean, I'm ignorant, but it doesn't seem like the most attractive method of presentation. Anyone willing to set me straight?

- trr

Cassandra_Sullivan
03-27-2008, 09:47 PM
Hey can I ask who's images it was? That sounds similar to what happened at the MA print comp last month...

Derek_Alvarez
03-27-2008, 10:20 PM
Yes you can:D

Don_Chick
03-27-2008, 10:24 PM
Yes, the PPA and affiliates all judge by starting at 100 and subtracting points.

As someone relatively new to judging (3 years now) at a state level (and having attended the Judges refresher class at Imaging 06) I have been told that TODAY judges are instructed to pick a category and decide where within that category the print lands. For example, if I think a print is excellent then I must decide if it should be low in the excellent category or high in the excellent category and punch in my score accordingly. Judges (today) should not be starting at 100 and deducting points in their head and punching in the balance on the keypad in front of them....
At least that's how I have been told to judge a print.

Don_Chick
03-27-2008, 10:26 PM
In PPA, any judge can call for a challenge at any time. There is an automatic challenge when one of the 5 scores is 10 or more points from the combined score.

10 or more points off the average score.

Don_Chick
03-27-2008, 10:29 PM
Can a judge Challenge more than one time Per image?

My experience at the state level in New England has been that each judge can challenge once. During thumbs you can challange again....

If judges are somehow bullying other judges it's up to the Jury Chair to correct that situation.

Derek_Alvarez
03-27-2008, 10:55 PM
That is what I always thought Don, that way it did not get bogged down
on one image!

D._Craig_Flory
03-27-2008, 11:15 PM
10 or more points off the average score.

Hi Don;

That's what I meant . :o

Helen_Yancy
03-28-2008, 12:32 AM
Hi everyone;

Warning - long post! <smile>

As "moderator" - Jury Chairman - at the recent Wisconsin competition, I would like to add to some comments here.
The panel was among the best I have ever worked with - all very conscientious and completely dedicated to the job at hand. All thoroughly enjoyed the beautiful images presented and all were very articulate in expressing their various opinions.
It's very unusual that someone in the audience would be able to see every score on the scoring machine, but it is possible.

First of all – 100 score does not imply perfection, as nothing is perfect. It is simply the highest score a judge can give in the process we use.

Second, it was asked to what standard a judge is held; the answer would be that PPA Approved Affiliate Jurors are expected to uphold the high standards of integrity established by PPA and PEC. That in no way means that they must have a PPA-PEC opinion on an image; there is no such thing.
It is expected that one reaching the level of a judge has the ability to make evaluations of an image based on their own technical expertise, their own life experiences, their own recognition of style and creativity, and the process and protocol of judging they learned when becoming a judge. That’s what the class is about – the process and protocol of judging – not about the opinions of a judge.
That means each judge may find something different in each image that comes in front of him or her, and the challenge system enables each judge to point out what they see in an image and why they scored the way they did. Many times a challenge brings out good or not so good things another judge didn’t see the first time. Challenging by either a judge or a moderator – which would be the Jury Chairman – does not imply “strong arm” tactics. It is the responsibility of every judge and every jury chairman to fight for an image when they feel it’s right to do so. It’s also their responsibility to accept that final score.

As for the same judge challenging an image more than once, that is simply not allowed on any panel. The exception would be when the “ins and outs” are done, which is a re-evaluation of images scoring between 78 and 81. That panel is considered a new panel, and any judge can challenge any image again – once.

As for taking points from 100 – PPA judges do NOT judge that way. There are categories with numbers for scoring. Our judges are taught to find the category where they feel an image should be scored, and pick a number within the range of that category. They are taught to use the words that describe that category when they are talking about the image in a challenge. The PPA-PEC trained judges do follow that process if they wish to remain on the judges list, and it has been many years since the statement “I took off X number of points for….” has been used.

The chart presented on display for the judges says:
Select the grade level first, and then the corresponding score.
(using the following point system):
Exceptional 100-95
Superior 94-90
Excellent 89-85
Deserving of a Merit 84-80
Deserving of Review 79-78
Above Average 77-76
Average 75-74
Acceptable 73-70
Automatic Review 81-78
Merit Print 80 and Above

Below Exhibition Standards 69-00

Anyone can obtain the Jury Chairman manual by downloading it from the PPA website.

Best wishes!

Helen

D._Craig_Flory
03-28-2008, 12:41 AM
[QUOTE=Helen Yancy;142112]Hi everyone;
As for the same judge challenging an image more than once, that is simply not allowed on any panel. The exception would be when the “ins and outs” are done, which is a re-evaluation of images scoring between 78 and 81. That panel is considered a new panel, and any judge can challenge any image again – once.

Hi Helen;

First of all ... it's nice to see you here. Greetings from the PPAofPa ! Sya hello to Jim Lersch while you are here.

With what you stated ... technically that may be correct. However, I've many times seen a judge ask to have an image brought back, over the last 30 years. So, it may not be considered a challenge but it's still escentially the same thing ... a way to say " I still think this maker deserves to have us view this image again".

Derek_Alvarez
03-28-2008, 01:02 AM
Helen,

Thank you for clearing up some of these question.
It was fairly easy to see the judges scoring since most of the time the room was almost empty and the fact the video camera was not very clear on the Screen, Quite a few stood near the front, close to the judges:D

On four Images I referenced, Did it not feel like there Was overkill on the discuss and Challenges? I guess it may not have since you where part of the
Process, and from the trenches time can fly:D But from the Peanut gallery
it did seem like a lot of time for 4 images.

I was amazed to see one judge move 22 points during the challenge / rescore
process.

It really make me wonder what they Saw or Did not see in the First scoring?


Thank again for help us understand .

Helen_Yancy
03-28-2008, 01:03 AM
Craig, that can happen at a state or local judging, where PEC has no authority - but I assure you, never at a PPA Regional or PPA International competition where the Seal of Approval and/or the Exhibition Merit is involved. Even if a judge that had already challenged an image tried to call the same image back, the Jury Chairman and the rest of the judges would not allow that to happen.

Keith_A_Howe
03-28-2008, 01:10 AM
As for the same judge challenging an image more than once, that is simply not allowed on any panel.


With what you stated ... technically that may be correct. However, I've many times seen a judge ask to have an image brought back, over the last 30 years. So, it may not be considered a challenge but it's still escentially the same thing ... a way to say " I still think this maker deserves to have us view this image again".

D. Craig, You are misunderstanding what Helen has said. A judge can challenge an image once. If a judge asks for an image to brought back, that IS considered a challenge. A judge cannot challenge and then rechallenge or bring back the same image - except during the ins and outs as Helen stated. A different judge on the panel CAN also challenge the image. So it is possible to have the same image challenged multiple times, but it is always by a different person on the panel. If you have seen it differently, that is either because it was not an affliate judging and they didn't follow PEC procedures or you did not realize it was different judges who made the additional challenges. Seeing as how Helen is the head of PEC and a PPA past president, I think she might have greater knowledge and insight into this whole issue than anyone of us who comments here.

Keith

P.S. Helen was posting as I was typing. So basically - what she said!

Helen_Yancy
03-28-2008, 01:12 AM
Thanks for the welcome, guys!

DErek, when an image scores 100 it's mandatory by PEC rules that there be a 10 minute break. Nobody wants to have their image judged right after the 100 image. Anytime the judges are thinking about going that high there is going to be a lot of discussion, and usually a lot of emotion. It isn't the time to push for the sake of time. It was also a case where the judges knew that the time element was not an issue, as the Wisconsin people had allowed plenty of time for judging to take place.
That was nice for the educational process - too bad more members weren't there.

Helen

Derek_Alvarez
03-28-2008, 01:22 AM
Ok so any image can be challenged up to 5/6? times?

Can the chair also challenge?

Derek_Alvarez
03-28-2008, 01:28 AM
Thank again Helen ,

We where posting at the same time:D I completely agree on an image scoring 100 and taking a break. I always feel sorry for the person who has to follow even after the break!

Anne_LeBouton
03-28-2008, 01:31 AM
Thank you Helen for clearing things up. I've been around too long and things that used to be done a certain way have now changed. I need to pay more attention next time I sit in on the judges briefing. Maybe next year I should voluteer for print crew in Wisconsin. I haven't done that for a few years and I miss it. I used volunteer on the art tech crew when we still had art tech judging here.

Anne_LeBouton
03-28-2008, 01:56 AM
Hey can I ask who's images it was? That sounds similar to what happened at the MA print comp last month...

Steve Ahrens. I feel comfortable saying who it was because I'm sure he won't mind. I'm sure he's proud of his accomplishment. He consistently scores high and his every day work is as good as his competition work.

Sandra_Pearce
03-28-2008, 02:28 AM
Hi Helen,

Just wanted to say hello and glad to see you on the forum clearing up some of the questions. I have watched hours of competition but I didn't remember challenging 80's for some reason. I had a print score 87 at State, score 80 at SEPPA - challenged and brought down to 78 at SEPPA. I don't know whether to send it on the Nationals or not. A toss up.

Sandra

andiegoodman
03-28-2008, 03:31 AM
My experience at the state level in New England has been that each judge can challenge once. During thumbs you can challange again....

If judges are somehow bullying other judges it's up to the Jury Chair to correct that situation.

But the Jury Chair can also question the score if he/she feels it may be "wrong".

Derek_Alvarez
03-28-2008, 03:34 AM
I had a print score 87 at State, score 80 at SEPPA - challenged and brought down to 78 at SEPPA.
Sandra

See this Is the Subjective Thing I'd Like to understand

Keith can you help ?

Don_Chick
03-28-2008, 03:41 AM
How cool is that to have Helen Yancy come to this thread and answer questions.

Helen, thank you for taking the time to post.

David_A._Lottes
03-28-2008, 03:59 AM
So dave how'd that work out for you:D

Pretty good so far......twenty years, livin' the dream.:rolleyes:




Pssst..........Dude!
You honest to God get Helen Yancy posting!:o

Derek_Alvarez
03-28-2008, 04:00 AM
I do what I can Buddy:)

Keith_A_Howe
03-28-2008, 04:08 AM
See this Is the Subjective Thing I'd Like to understand

Keith can you help ?

There could be 100's of reason's why Sandra's print scored the way it did from one judging to the next. It would be irresponsible of me when I have never seen the print or attended either judging to say what might have been the reason. If Sandra wants to ship the actual print to me I will view it under judging lighting conditions and then I would be willing to say how I would score it and why I think it scored where it did. Otherwise it's all just supposition and accomplishes nothing of value except to create doubt just for the sake of contraversy.

If you don't understand what subjective means here you go.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/subjective

Keith

Jeff_Dachowski
03-28-2008, 04:14 AM
Derek,
This can happen when the panel is made of non affiliated jurors. Every state has different rules for thier comps. In NH all judges have to be masters, and a certain number of those judges need to be PPA affiliate jurors. As you can imagine this cost us more money, but offers a real benefit to our membership, since in many cases, an 80 in NH translates to an accepted print at nationals.

At regional and nationals every juror is a ppa affiliate juror which means they are a master, have 25 print merits under their belts, have taken the PPA judging class, and have judged at the very least 3 comps where other ppa affiliate jurors are willing to critique their performance. Some states don't even require that you are a master to judge. Right there that can account for a huge disparity, never mind that I like Chevy, and you like ford! We are all different, and opinions are like.....well you know what I mean!

Jeff

Keith_A_Howe
03-28-2008, 04:15 AM
Pssst..........Dude!
You honest to God get Helen Yancy posting!:o

No, I called Helen and asked her to post. There were too many misconceptions being presented as facts on this thread. I felt they needed to addressed by the PEC ( Photographic Exhibition Committee). Helen was kind enough to take the time to read the whole thread and offer her well informed insights. Helen thanks a bunch, as usual your thoughts are invaluable. I appreciate the time you took to respond to my request.

Keith

Derek_Alvarez
03-28-2008, 04:17 AM
Thanks Keith,

Now for the next Question.
Have we reach a point in the Digital age that a Very Lite or non-Photoshop/Painter image can be viewed truly For there pure artistry?

Or is it as I heard a recent comment Why would you not Fix Everything?

Keith_A_Howe
03-28-2008, 04:25 AM
Now for the next Question.
Have we reach a point in the Digital age that a Very Lite or non-Photoshop/Painter image can be viewed truly For there pure artistry?



Absolutely uneqivocably yes.


Derek, all these questions. . . does this mean you are actually going to enter prints?
Keith

Derek_Alvarez
03-28-2008, 04:30 AM
I did in WPPA:D and I plan to continue I had a blast!
It Very enlightening! and the reason I watch and listen to the Judge very closely.
There where 320+ images and I saw all but made 20 judged

Back on the horse after 17yrs

Sandra_Pearce
03-28-2008, 05:42 AM
Keith,

It is not a problem about the print. I appreciate your wanting to help but it was just a question. I accept what comes out of competition. Some prints make it and some don't. I will enter others. Thanks Derek for checking.

Sandra

Sandra_Pearce
03-28-2008, 05:49 AM
I forgot to ask why can the Masters can enter comp prints in different sizes? It means the judges know immediately that the print was done by a Master. Does this give them an edge at all? It was something my husband ask me and I didn't have an answer.

Sandra

Rick_Massarini
03-28-2008, 06:16 AM
I forgot to ask why can the Masters can enter comp prints in different sizes? It means the judges know immediately that the print was done by a Master. Does this give them an edge at all? It was something my husband ask me and I didn't have an answer.

Sandra

I really don't think that the different size gives a Master an edge. In fact, it may be somewhat the opposite!
PEC jurors aren't going to care whether that image was from a Master or not, they give it the score that they feel it deserves.
They may actually be a bit harder on a Master when it comes to an imperfection since they might take the point of view that a Master should have known better...

D._Craig_Flory
03-28-2008, 02:02 PM
D. Craig, You are misunderstanding what Helen has said. A judge can challenge an image once. If a judge asks for an image to brought back, that IS considered a challenge. A judge cannot challenge and then rechallenge or bring back the same image - except during the ins and outs as Helen stated. A different judge on the panel CAN also challenge the image. So it is possible to have the same image challenged multiple times, but it is always by a different person on the panel. P.S. Helen was posting as I was typing. So basically - what she said!

Hi Keith;

That must be it ... a different panel member asking it to be brought back. Thanks (remember, I'm 60 years old so the memory is the 2nd thing to go:o )

Keith_A_Howe
03-28-2008, 02:56 PM
I forgot to ask why can the Masters can enter comp prints in different sizes? It means the judges know immediately that the print was done by a Master. Does this give them an edge at all? It was something my husband ask me and I didn't have an answer.

Sandra


I really don't think that the different size gives a Master an edge. In fact, it may be somewhat the opposite!
PEC jurors aren't going to care whether that image was from a Master or not, they give it the score that they feel it deserves.
They may actually be a bit harder on a Master when it comes to an imperfection since they might take the point of view that a Master should have known better...


I know this will be hard to believe but when i am judging, unless it is a drastically different size and shape, like a slim line, I don't even notice if it's not a 16x20. There are just too many other things for me to concentrate on. I have no idea why the size difference is allowed for Master's. Perhaps if Helen comes back to review this thread she will comment.
Keith

Jeff_Dachowski
03-28-2008, 03:16 PM
I forgot to ask why can the Masters can enter comp prints in different sizes? It means the judges know immediately that the print was done by a Master. Does this give them an edge at all? It was something my husband ask me and I didn't have an answer.

Sandra

Sandra,
As your husband noticed, the size change can be obvious during the competition. I would say with my limited experience that sometimes judges can look at those prints even closer, and without even meaning to develop opinions and hold masters to a higher standard. I know several masters who only produce 16x20 for this reason. I am not saying that is how I might approach it, but I can imagine it is hard to overcome that psychology.

Just my opinion.
Jeff

Michael_Gan
03-28-2008, 04:23 PM
My opinion, and probably wrong, is that having different sizes for the Masters gives more creative freedom. For those who are working towards their masters, it's more for learning how to "master" their craft. For Masters to elevate their work to the next level, its more like going beyond the boundries to create a new level of work in our industry. If the Masters would constantly push the standards to a higher level, this can be good for the industry (and keep the entries to print comp "new and fresh").

If we are charged to teach, we must do what we can to lead and show the possibilities, and the various size formats give the fledgling Master's candidates some new ideas to incorporate into their own work utilizing the 16x20 parameters.

Again, this is my perception, but I'm stickin' to it :D

Derek_Alvarez
03-28-2008, 05:09 PM
Jeff ,
I have to Agree When I see a master size image turn I expect some thing more from the Maker!

Jeff_Dachowski
03-28-2008, 05:28 PM
Jeff ,
I have to Agree When I see a master size image turn I expect some thing more from the Maker!
Derek,
At this point when watching I do too. I think though that although they have been given this priveledge, there should not be a double standard for the masters. I think that ppa jurors are cautioned to carefully consider their scores of a print, and be able to back up their scores if they were questioned.
Jeff

Anne_LeBouton
03-28-2008, 05:56 PM
At regional and nationals every juror is a ppa affiliate juror which means they are a master, have 25 print merits under their belts, have taken the PPA judging class, and have judged at the very least 3 comps where other ppa affiliate jurors are willing to critique their performance. Jeff

Wisconsin's print competition is a regional affiliated competition. I think it may be one of the few state associations that is. All the judges meet PPA standards and if a print scores 80 or above, it doesn't have to get rejudged at national.

Derek_Alvarez
03-31-2008, 12:52 PM
I think that ppa jurors are cautioned to carefully consider their scores of a print, and be able to back up their scores if they were questioned.
Jeff


I'm sure that true, But First impressions still ring true.

Jeff_Dachowski
03-31-2008, 01:18 PM
Wisconsin's print competition is a regional affiliated competition. I think it may be one of the few state associations that is. All the judges meet PPA standards and if a print scores 80 or above, it doesn't have to get rejudged at national.

Hi Anne,
I didn't know that Wis is it'sown regional. I knew that IL used to be on their own and now IN has joined them. So let me clarify that most states have have very different rules on the qulaifications of Jurors. Those that are regional organizations are required to pull jurors only from the approved affilaite juror list.

Jeff

Derek_Alvarez
03-31-2008, 02:06 PM
So I think this question got Lost here


Can a Print Chair Challenge and image or Bring one Back?

Jeff_Dachowski
03-31-2008, 02:15 PM
So I think this question got Lost here


Can a Print Chair Challenge and image or Bring one Back?
Derek,
Any member of the panel can challenge a print at any time during the scoring process. Even the next day. Even the alternate, even the print chair.

Jeff

Linda_Gregory
03-31-2008, 02:21 PM
So I think this question got Lost here


Can a Print Chair Challenge and image or Bring one Back?

Here's how I read Helen's answer



Helen Yancy:As for the same judge challenging an image more than once, that is simply not allowed on any panel. The exception would be when the “ins and outs” are done, which is a re-evaluation of images scoring between 78 and 81. That panel is considered a new panel, and any judge can challenge any image again – once

Derek_Alvarez
03-31-2008, 02:30 PM
Derek,
Any member of the panel can challenge a print at any time during the scoring process. Even the next day. Even the alternate, even the print chair.

Jeff


Thanks I figured that must be the Case!

Keith_A_Howe
03-31-2008, 03:13 PM
Derek,
Any member of the panel can challenge a print at any time during the scoring process. Even the next day. Even the alternate, even the print chair.

Jeff

Just to clairify, Jeff is 100% correct as long as the category is still actively being judged. Once ins and outs starts, the only images that can be challenged are those in the automatic review (ins and outs), 78-81. Once the ins and outs have been done, you can no longer challenge or bring an image back. Also any ONE individual jurror can challenge a given image only once during the active judging and one more time during ins and outs. As I said before if the same image is rechallenged it has to be by a different juror. During a challange , the challengeing juror speaks first, giving their score and why they challenged the image. Then each other juror including the alternate (and the jury chair if they want) voices thier score and opinions. Next the orginal challenger gets a rebutal. A jury chair will seldom challenge but certainly can. Then the image is re scored. Any juror can challenge, including the jury chairman and the alternate. Anyone can read the jury chairman's manual for Affiliated Competitions. None of this information Derek is asking for is secret. It is easily available from the ppa web site. Here is the link, http://www.ppa.com/files/public/JCmanuaNov07.pdf
Hopefully this answers everyone's questions about procedures.

Keith

Keith_A_Howe
03-31-2008, 03:16 PM
So I think this question got Lost here


Can a Print Chair Challenge and image or Bring one Back?

I kept passing over this and reading it as jury chair. No, a print chairman, the person from the state or region who organizes the competition, cannot EVER challenge. A print chair is not a member of the judging panel. A jury chair is the person who runs the actual judging, and yes they can challenge.
Keith

Derek_Alvarez
03-31-2008, 03:31 PM
Thanks Keith for clearing that up for me:D

Derek_Alvarez
03-31-2008, 03:54 PM
Keith

You answered this but I'm not sure I ask it clear enough to really help


Can an image Be Judged for its Pure artist value Without doing all the PS work?

Or would a Judge Expect since WE can Fix it all that We should.

I hope that makes better sense.

Keith_A_Howe
03-31-2008, 04:35 PM
Keith

You answered this but I'm not sure I ask it clear enough to really help


Can an image Be Judged for its Pure artist value Without doing all the PS work?

Or would a Judge Expect since WE can Fix it all that We should.

I hope that makes better sense.


Absolutely uneqivocably yes.



I did answer the question. I knew what you were asking. Of course a print can be judged on it's artistic value, but that doesn't mean the only artistic value comes at the moment the exposure is made. But it also doesn't mean that it might not be a straight print from camera and still score well also. But why wouldn't you fix what is in your power to fix? I got chastized on this forum a while back about a wedding print.At the time it wasn't posted as a potential competition print, just for critique. Everyone said the shadows on the wall should be removed and I said I would leave them.The general consensus was if you have the power to fix it, why wouldn't you do everything you could to present the best possible final image. I know Ron Jackson has strongly stated sentiments to that effect many times, that he only shows completely retouched enhanced images. As far as for competition, it is up to each maker as the artist to decide what needs to be done to create the artistic value and vision they are seeking to present. It is up to the judge to evaluate what is in front of them. If something appears in the image a certain way, we have no choice but to believe the maker wanted to present it that way and then score it accordingly.

If print competition was a straight print only contest, with no corrections, enhancements or presentation allowed, there would be a general outcry that PPA was stifling artistic expression. I know this would happen because it did just that in Nebraska. We had several members complaining and not entering because of the amount of artwork done to competition prints. So in an effort to be responsive to the membership, NE started a competition that was straight prints, no retouching or artwork. Then other members complained LOUDLY that their creativity was being limited. And the members that had complained about all the artwork on regular competition prints, they didn't enter the straight print competition either. That competition has since evolved into two catergories, one for straight prints and one for artwork/enhanced. Nobody has entered the straight print catergory in years.

By the way, Holly has a loan print that was a straight out of camera print. It was also selected for Photokina. And the camera was a $99 point and shoot film camera. So that print was totally about straight artistic vision at the moment of capture.

Keith

Derek_Alvarez
03-31-2008, 04:57 PM
Great Answer,

So You know it's Coming:D At what point have We crossed over from Standard
to EI?
Where does the Line get crossed.

Keith_A_Howe
03-31-2008, 05:05 PM
http://ourppa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11472

This has already been addressed today.
Keith

Derek_Alvarez
03-31-2008, 06:40 PM
Thanks I missed that!