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JohnMalboeuf
03-19-2008, 08:30 PM
This is a sports related image for possible competition. It is a bit out there.

Title: "Anticipation"
http://www.johnmphoto.com/images/anticipation2_lr.jpg

All comments are welcome.

Thanks in advance,
John

Jeff_Dachowski
03-19-2008, 08:48 PM
John,
I think you are on to something here. I want to say though that as this is shot, I think it will fall in the average category. But!!! I want to encourage you to set this up again and reshoot it to have a lot more impact.

You think I am kidding, but I know you can do this. Get a bunch of the wrestling kids together, and tell them where to stand, and exactly where to look, and light the scene for the ball. This way you can have control over the scene.

As is the ball is not sharp enough for me as well as some of the kids are not sharp. A reshoot will also allow you to get rid of the white shirt in a sea of red. Or maybe you want to have another color in the sea of red where the other color is mad it is going to go in.

Just my thoughts.
Jeff

JohnMalboeuf
03-20-2008, 12:09 AM
Hi Jeff,

This was taken during the Class L Championship Basketball game between Trinity and Salem at UNH on Saturday. I shot it with available light. I was watching the crowd everytime a shot went up the crowd looked intently. I have a few action shots from the game, but nothing that is worthy for competition.

I like your Idea. My son Erik was the team manager for Nashua South. I can talk to a few of Erik's friends. They all have purple Nashua South shirts. The only trouble I may have is getting time at the gym.

John

Darren_Whitley
03-20-2008, 12:43 AM
John,

There are better moments than this. I think you got fatigued by the environment.

Setting up a journalistic moment such as the one you're sharing isn't ethical. The reason it's unethical is because you're attempting to document a moment that is completely faked.

There are so many opportunities for incredible photos. I'm confident you're good enough to get them. Just be patient. Authenticity is part of the value of the work.

If you want to set up a perfect shot, you can do better than this.

Why not buy them popcorn and drinks, use a high and wide angle on the fans having them jump up and down with popcorn and soda flying everywhere and light it like a Dave Hill photo?

JohnMalboeuf
03-20-2008, 01:23 AM
[QUOTE=Darren Whitley;140195]John,



Setting up a journalistic moment such as the one you're sharing isn't ethical. The reason it's unethical is because you're attempting to document a moment that is completely faked.

QUOTE]

Darren,

The image above was shot during the game. I did not set that image up. Sorry I saw something in the crowd that was interesting.

This is a small sample of other images from the game.
http://www.johnmphoto.com/images/gamesamples/

John

Art_Wright
03-20-2008, 01:52 AM
John, I think Darren was talking to the set-up of a reshoot as unethical...

Mark_Levesque
03-20-2008, 01:56 AM
I think it depends on how John would be representing it. If he would be representing it as an actual documentary shot, yes, staging would be unethical. If, however, it was just in PO in comp, or used as a commercial shot, there would be no ethical issue.

Jeff_Dachowski
03-20-2008, 02:02 AM
Setting up a journalistic moment such as the one you're sharing isn't ethical. The reason it's unethical is because you're attempting to document a moment that is completely faked.

Darren,
obviously I totally disagree. I take great exception to the implication that I am suggesting John do something unethical.

Reshooting an image like this for competition is no different than a portrait photog who has an idea in thier head, and takes steps to bring that idea from synapse to photographic paper. I would never suggest he reshoot this and then pass it off to a newspaper or yearbook, just that as it is a lot could be improved upon, and if you like the concept follow though right to the end with it.

JohnMalboeuf
03-20-2008, 02:05 AM
Darren,

People setup shots like this all of the time. I think it is clear when they do. It would only be unethical if you presented it and claimed it as an in game image. The difference is that you would have perfect lighting. The image above was shot from the other side of the UNH gym with available light. The subjects were on the other side of the court. There would be a huge difference in the look of the posed rather than the in game one. Portraits are all about posing. Weddings are about posing. Commercial photography is about posing. There is a difference.

Please hammer me on my photography if it is a bad shot, but do not question ethics. Posing groups for images is done all the time. That was inappropriate.

Art, Mark, Jeff,

Thanks for your support.

John

Linda_Gregory
03-20-2008, 04:23 AM
I agree totally with John, Jeff and Mark.

I come from a newspaper background where capturing the actual action was imperative and to set it up for that would have been totally unethical but for this? Not a chance. Careful when you splash words like unethical around, it raises the ire of those who are unfairly accused and those who agree.

I try to balance someone's comment such as yours with their background but I know nothing about you and I do the others. It's nice here to let others know about you, where you are located, if you have a webpage and anything about your background.

Dave_Cisco
03-20-2008, 04:31 AM
John,

There are better moments than this. I think you got fatigued by the environment.

Setting up a journalistic moment such as the one you're sharing isn't ethical. The reason it's unethical is because you're attempting to document a moment that is completely faked.

There are so many opportunities for incredible photos. I'm confident you're good enough to get them. Just be patience. Authenticity is part of the value of the work.

If you want to set up a perfect shot, then you can do better than this.

Why not buy them popcorn and drinks, use a high and wide angle on the fans having them jump up and down with popcorn and soda flying everywhere and light it like a Dave Hill photo?

I have a conflict here....what advice are you giving?

Personally, I wouldn't find a setup unethical unless it was claimed to be otherwise.

Darren_Whitley
03-20-2008, 05:09 AM
To set up a photo, which is supposed to be documentary, is considered unethical. The original photo was taken as documentary and not as an illustration. (end of that point)

(second point)
If you're going to do an illustrative photo, as was suggested, you can do better. And my suggestions were given as to what it might take to create a better photo illustration if the original photographer were to move away from documentary photography.

I totally agree Mark. It's how the work is represented that makes the difference. I took the photo as journalistic. I took the inquiry to mean whether the image had value based on it's journalstic content.

John I wasn't suggesting you had done anything unethical. Your photo has value because it's real. I can see you realize that or you wouldn't be considering it for competition.

The question I'd raise though is if anything goes for competition, why wouldn't you (or anyone else) Photoshop a different shirt over the white one? If anything goes for competition, why not?

JohnMalboeuf
03-20-2008, 09:51 PM
Darren,

Thanks for the clarification. Business Ethics is a big deal. If people perceive you as unethical, they will not work with you. The one thing a business can live or die with is their reputation. One happy client tells 10 people. One unhappy client tells 1000.

With that said, I will not likely use the image for competition based on a few other comments. I can do a real nice illustrative image with better lighting next fall and have it ready for NH 2009. High School Basketball season is over this year in NH. I may be able to work with one of the local AAU teams.

I do have another image from the same game that I like. Not sure if it is competition worthy.

Title: Fast Break or Hoop Dream
http://www.johnmphoto.com/images/FastBreak_lr.jpg

John

Darren_Whitley
03-20-2008, 11:41 PM
John,

I think the doors hurt your photo. Do you have anything tight and clean with a face and some body language? In my opinion and training as a photographer you need a face showing to make a photo.

The second image might be better if there had been a strong sidelight with a long shadow on the right, a clean background and maybe a scoreboard in an ideal spot or something like that to justify the composition. Based on the motion blur of the ball and back foot, you also appear to have been shooting around 1/250 or 1/320th.

I've posted a photo of mine. I'm not considering it for competition, I'd want it to be better. But what this photo illustrates is emotion and wild athleticism. I really like wild photos rather than the predictable. A predictable photo could probably still win in competition if it's technically perfect.

Although I've been shooting college sports for more than 10 years now, the wild moments are tough to come by. They're certainly not predictable. At different levels of competition such as D1, they are more common. However, the style of basketball that teams play at DII is different. It's typically a halfcourt game so there aren't a lot of break aways for the basket like you might find. D1 teams play a lot of transition offense and press.

JohnMalboeuf
03-21-2008, 12:33 AM
Darren,

You know your setting iso 1600 1/250 f2.8 on that image.

I was also considering this image.

http://www.johnmphoto.com/images/lax_shot2_lr.jpg

John

Darren_Whitley
03-21-2008, 03:41 AM
That's better. I would suggest you crop down from the top. Her eyes should be near a rule of thirds line. Don't be too literal on that, just in the vicinity. Do it by feel it... it's art, rule of thirds isn't an absolute rule.

Also, you need to do a slight burn (midtone adjustment) of the background. Keep it subtle, but judges might want more, so use some discretion.

Don't saturate the skin more than it is. Make a feathered selection and bring up the white tones of the face as well.

Note that the green of the field looks too matte to me. It's a bit grey.

Are you shooting with a new Mark III? I've seen similar matte colors coming from a Mark III user. Good luck. Keep throwing more photos on this thread or start another one. Hopefully more people will chime in.

Noelle_Zaleski
03-21-2008, 11:46 AM
John thank you so much for posting your sports photos for CC. I enjoy shooting action and I love hearing all the advice given here.

maybe this has been asked but what lens and camera are you shooting with?

JohnMalboeuf
03-21-2008, 03:13 PM
Hi Guys,

I am in the process of converting over to Nikon from the Minolta/Sony fiasco.

The Basketball image was shot with my Nikon D70 and a 70-200 lens.

I am almost embarassed to say that he Lacross image was shot last May or June with my Minolta and a 70-200 lens.

I am still in the process of upgrading to the D300.

John

Annie_Duncan
03-21-2008, 03:19 PM
Hi Guys,

The Basketball image was shot with my Nikon D70 and a 70-200 lens.

John

That is a wonderful combo. I used my D70 and 70-200 2.8 in all sorts of circumstances, and loved every second of it. Last year, I upgraded to a D2Xs, but still often use the D70--great camera and amazing lens!

Jacob_Chinn
03-21-2008, 07:23 PM
The lacross image is my favorite so far, but I don't like the cropping. I don't like how her feet are cut through the middle. I see it as a horizontal, almost square. Eliminating her legs and the top of the image. Just my thoughts.