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JohnMalboeuf
02-03-2008, 02:32 AM
Hi guys, I have only seen portraits and scenics here. Please comment on this sports image for competition possibility.

Thanks in advance,
John

Keith_A_Howe
02-04-2008, 07:13 PM
John
the file is pretty small to see detail but here is what I see at the moment.
It appears to have good light direction at least looking at the legs it does. I can't see into the face here. The second player is cut through the body which is an uncomfortable crop. I can't tell if the club through the body is going to be a distraction in the full size image or if it will be an important enough part of the story to justify it's placement. So the end result is I can't tell enought to decide where I would place the image if I were scoring it.
Keith

JohnMalboeuf
02-04-2008, 11:26 PM
Hi Keith,

I am working on the FTP connection in order to post larger images. I talked to Mark Levesque yesterday at the NHPPA Winter Seminar. He gave me some tips, I just have to work out the details. In the mean time, can I email the image?

Thank you,
John

JohnMalboeuf
02-05-2008, 01:41 AM
http://http://www.johnmphoto.com/images/laxgoal2_lr.jpg

JohnMalboeuf
02-05-2008, 01:44 AM
[img]http://www.johnmphoto.com/images/laxgoal2_lr.jpg

JohnMalboeuf
02-05-2008, 01:47 AM
[{img}http://www.johnmphoto.com/images/laxgoal2_lr.jpg{img}]

try 3

JohnMalboeuf
02-05-2008, 01:48 AM
image removed

again

JohnMalboeuf
02-05-2008, 01:50 AM
When all else fails, RTM. Thanks Mark for the tutorial.

John

Keith_A_Howe
02-05-2008, 05:00 AM
John, My main concern after seeing it larger is still the awkward cropping of the second player. Is there a reason you choose to crop it this way?

Keith

JohnMalboeuf
02-05-2008, 11:39 AM
The reason for the crop was to put the goal scorer more in the upper 3rd of the image rather than the center. I also removed another player that did not add to the image. This is the uncropped version.

image removed

Keith_A_Howe
02-05-2008, 02:40 PM
John
I like it better un cropped, I would take out the extra ?wicket? thingy on the right side and tone down all but the two forward most players. Wish the second players heal was in it, it would be an even stronger composition. Can't stop a man on a mission.
Keith

D._Craig_Flory
02-05-2008, 03:31 PM
Hi John;

I'm posting a quick version I did for you. I hope it helps you see possibilities.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i93/DC47/Lacrosse.jpg

JohnMalboeuf
02-05-2008, 10:53 PM
Kieth, D. Craig,

Thanks for the advice on this. I like the crop that way as well. I will work on it and repost.

Thanks,
John

Ed_Conner
02-07-2008, 02:54 AM
John,
Having entered countless HS & lower level athletic images over the last 20+ years at state, regional, & national levels, my experience has been dismal at best.
Sports images depend more on the panel make up than any other image IMO. I've seen very good blood & guts football & exquisitely athletic- Baseball & Basketball shots all go down as 77-79 because no one on the panel would speak up for them. Having said that I've seen average at best sports images go through. The reasons I've noticed are the intangibles like time of day, what the previous image was(& its score), how long the panel has been sitting there judging, and the venue the game took place. By "venue" I mean a well lit arena or stadium suggesting "Big Time Athletic Event" this will often get the image attention it deserves either consciously or sub consciously. Let's face it the big venues have fewer field level distractions in the background and generally more even lighting which, allow the use of a longer lens, and faster Shutter speeds. Making the background less of a nuisance and more of a compliment. Thus allowing for better cropping and sharper images. Negating most complaints I hear jurists say about sports images.
To be fair I have probably entered athletic event images I may have been to emotionally attached to. Consequently, giving my prints less than an objective view when cropping, matting, or making PS filter decisions. Which, is a common problem in print competition. Also the bigger sports venues usually have players who play the game(s) at a higher level of competition and you can get more images with the desired impact.

In your image the light and the composition are very good. The distractions of the line of the red post from the goal, the people in the upper left center practicing on the goal, and the player in the back right corner should/can be easily overcome in PS and matting. But I don't know if all that can overcome the lack of any visible "intensity" or "emotion". Which, was referenced earlier; albeit about the size & Resolution not being enough to see their faces, from any of the main players. Yes there is intense concentration but not the "I gotta score no matter what" or "You're only scoring over my dead body" emotion that you really need to tell the story and carry the viewer past any real or perceived deficiencies.

My apologies if I'm being a wet blanket.

Ed Conner. Cert, M-photog
Winfield,WV

Dave_Cisco
02-07-2008, 05:34 AM
Here's another quickie...
Background distractions gone, extended playing field to keep player's heel..."wicket" gone.
Probably still not a merit, but knowing what would make a print look better to a judge provides guidance in enhancing the image. And it will help produce better images for your clients.

Mark_Levesque
02-07-2008, 12:38 PM
Ha- John, this is exactly what I was talking about at the meeting last night! Thanks, Dave, for the object lesson.

JohnMalboeuf
02-08-2008, 02:03 AM
Hi Mark and Dave,

Wow, I see what you were/are talking about. That made a huge difference in the presentation. The image cleans right up without the distractions. With sports it is almost impossible to keep the distractions out out of the frame. You are right, I don't think it will merit base on what I saw at last evenings meeting either. I have others that may be stronger alot candidtates.

I think I am only going to use one of last nights images for competition.

Thanks,
John

JohnMalboeuf
02-09-2008, 01:07 PM
image removed


I am thinking of calling this "Point of Impact" or "Seperation"

Any comments are welcome.

Thanks in advance,
John

D._Craig_Flory
02-09-2008, 02:16 PM
Hi John;

I'm sorry, the other one I really like. This one does nothing for me. Go through the Dirty Dozen and see, for yourself, how many points it has.

JohnMalboeuf
02-09-2008, 03:14 PM
Hi D. Craig,

I just did the Excersize you suggested. You are right on. This is a matter of ME liking an image too much on my part. I was looking at the face of the kid being hit and forgetting the other things.

Image #2 (Seperation) falls apart when it comes to a being a merit image. Mainly on the light quality.

Image #1 (Lacrosse Goal) NEED A TITLE
Twelve Elements of a Merit Print
• Impact – Goal being scored. Plenty of impact (YES)
• Creativity – It is in game, hard to control the action, but not easy to capture. Lacrosse is not a common sport to photograph. (maybe)
• Style – (Yes)
• Composition - object of interest is in the left 3rd. Cannot flip due to writing on the Jerseys (YES)
• Print Presentation – Highlights not blown out (YES)
• Color Harmony – Colors complement. (YES)
• Center of Interest -White jersey draws you to the goal scorer. (YES)
• Lighting – lighting is directional. This was shot at about 5:00PM Sun is coming through the trees. (YES)
• Subject Matter – not everyone likes sports (Maybe)
• Technical Excellence/Print Quality – Lustre Color does a great job (Likely)
• Technique - It is in game, hard to control the action, but not easy to capture . Recropping to include more enhanced the image. (YES)
• Story Telling Goal being scored. (YES)

Image #2 (Separation)
Twelve Elements of a Merit Print
• Impact – Hard hit on Player. plenty of impact (YES)
• Creativity – It is in game, hard to control the action, but not easy to capture. Lacrosse is not a common sport to photograph. (maybe)
• Style – (maybe)
• Composition - object of interest is in the right 3rd (YES)
• Print Presentation – white jersey blown out? (maybe)
• Color Harmony – Colors complement. (YES)
• Center of Interest - Drawn to the check (YES)
• Lighting – flat lighting no real direction this is where the image falls apart. Overcast sky flattens image. Was shot at about 1:30. (NO)
• Subject Matter – not everyone likes sports (Maybe)
• Technical Excellence/Print Quality – Lustre Color does a great job (Likely)
• Technique - It is in game, hard to control the action, but not easy to capture. A recrop will not help this image. (NO)
• Story Telling Hard hit on Player. (YES)

Ed_Conner
02-10-2008, 05:45 AM
John,

Glad to see you took a hard honest look at your image. More of us need to be honest with ourselves.

PPWV from last years(2007) competition(www.ppwv.org) has 3 images I believe went blue. 2 Basketball & 1 swimming. They should give you a rough idea on what to look for in a sports image.

Don't lose heart. As long as you see improvement in yourself you win. It's why I keep entering after 20+ years. Even though some of my colleagues here in WV like to give me grief for some of the things I insist on entering and at times should know better with a CPP & Masters.

You appear to have a decent eye and good anticipation. Not all of us can work for Sports Illustrated so keep entering and enjoying. We need more sports shooters pushing the envelope with panelists and ourselves.

Ed Conner

JohnMalboeuf
02-10-2008, 06:32 AM
Hi Ed,

Thanks for the kind words. The WV showed motocross, football and swimming blues. All great images. I hope to get to that level with my competition images. I see that it can be done.

This year in NH will be my 2nd competition. My goal is to improve every year. Last year I entered 4 prints at NHPPA, not National or Regional. I have been a PPA member since September of last year. I told a NHPPA friend that my goal was to not have any images go back into the case. I did OK. I got 1 blue (bird, I almost fainted), 1 red (sleeping cat), and 2 whites (BW portrait and Scenic). No sports. I think I sold myself short. I plan on entering at least 1 sports image. Sports is what I like to shoot the best. I think there was only 1 sports image in NH last year. It was a bull rider. Don't remember the score.

I recently got some advise from a PPA member. "If you don't think it will be a 90 and you are looking for Blues, then don't enter the image. If you honestly think it is a 90, then it will likely be above an 80. If you shoot for an 80, then you will get 78's or 79's. Your client may love the image, you will get green the ribbons, but without all the merit elements, you don't get the Blue ones. Shoot everything as if it will go into competition and you will keep improving." This is sound advise.

Sports will be difficult to achieve a 90 because of the dynamic nature of the subject. Birds and bugs are also very dynamic. They don't like to sit still. I have seen some awesome bug images that scored blues.

Thanks,
John

Ed_Conner
02-11-2008, 07:51 PM
John,
Since I opened my mouth and stuck my nose in I ought to show something myself. WV allows more than 4 entries so I'm throwing these 2 against the wall this week. I've included a couple of potential titles. We shall see what we shall see. FWIW I don't suggest doing prints as I do. Day before the cut off at the lab.

The horse race I just didn't want to take the sign out so titled it to incorporate it. It may fly it may not. I liked the Oh No expression of the rider, about to run the one that fell off, over.

Always things you see after the fact. I wish I had paid more attention to the table particularly the end in the BB pic. Would have been easy to tone it down or even change the color.

Ed Conner

Stacey_West
02-12-2008, 03:07 AM
I have seen this question in the past but don't recall it being answered - what about model releases in sports photos - wouldn't a model release be required from every recognizable person in a sports photo?

In this image "I Get By With A Little Help From My Friends" #28 is now a marquee running back in the NFL; his face is shielded by the dark face mask. However, in the full resolution image at least three others players are recognizable.

Also if entering an image from a pro team or even a major college are there not trademark issues to worry about?

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb145/loftphoto/sample.jpg

JohnMalboeuf
02-12-2008, 03:12 AM
Hi Ed,

I like both images.

I am not yet qualified to comment on image quality for competition, (except my own).

On the BBall image, How about "Driven" or "Fly" as a title.

Sports and Nature Photography are my favorites.

Best of luck at the competition. I hope you do well.

We compete in April in NH. I have 3 images that I have finished and am working o 4 more. I need to drop it down to 5 for NH.

John

Ed_Conner
03-05-2008, 02:00 PM
John,

Just to update you and any others who were interested.

I didn't enter the horse race just the BB pic. Titled it "Showtime" scored an 82 and won the Best News/Sports image trophy at the PPWV Comp 3 weeks ago.

Entered it at Mid East last week and scored a 93 didn't win anything else though.

There were several very good sports/action images there that went 80+ and several that didn't. Biggest reason I could tell those that missed were wrong lens & f-stop. FWIW.

So in answer of your original ? it can and will continue to be done.

Ed Conner -CPP, M-Photog

Stacey_West
03-06-2008, 06:08 AM
John,

Just to update you and any others who were interested.

I didn't enter the horse race just the BB pic. Titled it "Showtime" scored an 82 and won the Best News/Sports image trophy at the PPWV Comp 3 weeks ago.

Entered it at Mid East last week and scored a 93 didn't win anything else though.

There were several very good sports/action images there that went 80+ and several that didn't. Biggest reason I could tell those that missed were wrong lens & f-stop. FWIW.

So in answer of your original ? it can and will continue to be done.

Ed Conner -CPP, M-Photog

Ed,
This is a very nice photo - congratulations on the good scores. Would you mind sharing details on how you lit this image?

Ed_Conner
03-06-2008, 02:29 PM
Ed,
This is a very nice photo - congratulations on the good scores. Would you mind sharing details on how you lit this image?

Stacey,

Available light - 500th f-2.8 Nikon D-100, ISO 1600, Nikor 70-200VR. Custom white balance with "Expo Disc" Tweaked a little in curves and a dark vignette to darken the floor.
Nice thing about a reasonably well lighted(lit?) coliseum.

WV HS Athletic governing(WVSSAC) body won't allow flash of any kind during the state tournament games. Can use it all year in the little dungeons called gyms these kids play but, not in the big arena where a flash is nothing more than minor fill and not the main exposure. FWIW I can use flash on the Cheerleaders during timeouts. It will be a long time before I understand that. It probably has something to do with the dozen or so that could all at once go off or close enough and cause a real distraction. Particularly with the large number of people calling themselves photographers at these events with slow lenses.

Sorry, I digress and vent to much.

Ed

JohnMalboeuf
03-06-2008, 10:41 PM
:D :D
John,

Just to update you and any others who were interested.

I didn't enter the horse race just the BB pic. Titled it "Showtime" scored an 82 and won the Best News/Sports image trophy at the PPWV Comp 3 weeks ago.

Entered it at Mid East last week and scored a 93 didn't win anything else though.

There were several very good sports/action images there that went 80+ and several that didn't. Biggest reason I could tell those that missed were wrong lens & f-stop. FWIW.

So in answer of your original ? it can and will continue to be done.

Ed Conner -CPP, M-Photog

Hi Ed,

Awesome job. Congratulations.

I am still working on a sports image. I have another frame from the lacrosse image. I think it is better than the one I posted. We will see.

John

Keith_A_Howe
03-06-2008, 11:29 PM
John, because you have posted some potential sports images here I wanted to give my opinion as a judge (but a non-sports photographer) as to why this image by Ed did well. First and most important for impact, Ed caught the definitive moment. Then notice how the background does not fight for attention with the subjects but tells the story. Even though my eye travels to the announcers - it goes right back to the action. As a portrait photographer I would have composed it differently, but it is a sports image and that is something different. I noticed right away there is plenty of room for a magazine title at the top! The other thing I am noticing, which also goes to catching the definitive moment, is the arms and legs are diagonal lines. In a static image, a diagonal compositional line creates a sense of motion. Also, even though Ed said it was available light and he could not control it, look at the light direction on each boys face. i know you can't as players in a game to turn into the light or wait while you position a reflector, so it's up to you to sort through and find those images where you happened to catch the light just right. Lighting for sports photography competition is more about sorting out what's not right then it is about adjusting what's there to be right. However, think about where your light is coming from and where the action is and then postion yourself to up your odds of having that impactful directional light.
Again, I am not a sports photographer, so my comments don't come from experience but from what I look at when I judge such an image.

Keith

Ed_Conner
03-07-2008, 03:30 AM
John, because you have posted some potential sports images here I wanted to give my opinion as a judge (but a non-sports photographer) as to why this image by Ed did well. First and most important for impact, Ed caught the definitive moment. Then notice how the background does not fight for attention with the subjects but tells the story. Even though my eye travels to the announcers - it goes right back to the action. As a portrait photographer I would have composed it differently, but it is a sports image and that is something different. I noticed right away there is plenty of room for a magazine title at the top! The other thing I am noticing, which also goes to catching the definitive moment, is the arms and legs are diagonal lines. In a static image, a diagonal compositional line creates a sense of motion. Also, even though Ed said it was available light and he could not control it, look at the light direction on each boys face. i know you can't as players in a game to turn into the light or wait while you position a reflector, so it's up to you to sort through and find those images where you happened to catch the light just right. Lighting for sports photography competition is more about sorting out what's not right then it is about adjusting what's there to be right. However, think about where your light is coming from and where the action is and then postion yourself to up your odds of having that impactful directional light.
Again, I am not a sports photographer, so my comments don't come from experience but from what I look at when I judge such an image.

Keith

Well said Keith. I wish more judges and for that matter more entrants would think like what you said.

Just for the record I'm not primarily a sports photographer. Horse shows are where I do most of my work. Sports are something I've done since I was 12(50 now) and do it mainly to keep my face in front of parents and kids for the portrait work during my self enforced off season. And yes, I pick up a little more than gas money with it as well.

And in retrospect I was probably just a little to cavalier about the lens & f-stop choices by the makers of the sports images that didn't go blue in Dayton. Although that played a large part.

It's taken me a long time to get over the attachment to many of my action images and be critical enough to understand the game of print competition whether it be action or portraits. In the end it makes us all better if we'll let it.

Ed Conner - CPP, M-Photog