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Ron_Jackson
01-26-2008, 02:58 AM
Someone please explain the levels of competition and how each affects the next level and ultimately at the National and Internation print comp level. Do you have judging at every level all the way to the International competition. If you enter in your local affiliate and it merits, what does that mean at the next level and what does that local affiliate merit mean at the national level if anything. I was told that there no longer is judging at national and that you have to merit at state or regionals to get a "thumbs yo ir thumbs down" at national. I know nothing about any of this so I hope someone can explain the process to where it makes sense to me. Thanks.

Elizabeth_Pokela
01-26-2008, 03:00 AM
Thanks for asking this question Ron. I have been wondering the same thing, bt haven't asked the question!

Elizabeth

DianeDavis
01-26-2008, 03:00 AM
Good Question Ron. Looking forward to the answer myself.

Jeff_Dachowski
01-26-2008, 03:11 AM
Ron,
If your state has several guilds, you can usually enter in a guild. Somtimes states have several guilds like IL which has a northern and southern guild. every state is different, but if you enter your images at either the state or the guild level, it might qualify you for points towards your state photog of the year, or fuji's and kodak's, court of honor, best black and white pet portrait on a high key background ( horizontal) award ( like some states do):)

Your state belongs to a regional, in which prints that score an 80 or higher can be sent to the national comp since it has already gotten a "seal of approval" from an all affiliate jury. Your regional has awards much like state, but for the region. ( Typically)

National uses affiliate juries, so it is redundant to re-view an image to see if it scores an 80 or not. At national, they do not work on scores, but by thumbs up or down. Prints that have a seal will get judged for the loan collection, just like any other image that was accepted as thumbs up.

Hope this helps.

Jeff

Mark_Levesque
01-26-2008, 03:16 AM
Local and (often) state judging are basically preliminaries, that help you decide what to enter in your regional competitions. It's the regional competitions (and some of the larger states) that "count". You are looking for seals, which mean an automatic merit. You get seals from affiliated juror panels, when they are held at the correct level. (We had a complete panel of affiliated jurors last year, but no seals were awarded because the competition was not at the right level. At PPANE (New England regional) those of us with blues got seals, and will get automatic merits at "national" (aka international) this June.

Mark_Levesque
01-26-2008, 03:17 AM
<== Er, what he said.

Cheri_MacCallum
01-26-2008, 03:32 AM
Just to clarify what Jeff said,
At the national level, they don't use numerical scores, but they STILL judges thumbs up or down to give merits if they have not sealed at a regional as well as those who have sealed or merited to go loan!

Ron_Jackson
01-26-2008, 05:21 AM
Okay thanks. So you can't just send images to national that have never been judged previously. I made that more of a statement than a question but feel free to clarify. So, in Florida there are two different organizations one of which is the state level PPA affiliate. Within that state affiliate, there are a number of guilds. So I would need to merit at least at the state level to ge eligible for national (International) or can you merit at a lower level and it count?

Marc_Benjamin
01-26-2008, 05:31 AM
Ron, you can enter (internationals really) nationals directly. The main reasons to enter the sub levels are.

1. Practice/critique dry run
3. Local awards
3. Get a preliminary thumbs up (if you score above 80) at the regionals. So it's like getting an additional chance to hang.

Some seasoned people (especially masters) just send images to nationals directly because they don't need/care about local trophies anymore and are really just going for loan.

Another (very very valid) reason to go to nationals directly is to save on the comp fees.

Good luck!

andiegoodman
01-26-2008, 05:35 AM
Okay thanks. So you can't just send images to national that have never been judged previously. I made that more of a statement than a question but feel free to clarify. So, in Florida there are two different organizations one of which is the state level PPA affiliate. Within that state affiliate, there are a number of guilds. So I would need to merit at least at the state level to ge eligible for national (International) or can you merit at a lower level and it count?

Yes you can, Ron. It does not NEED to be judged earlier but it may be a good way to clean up a print that scores a 78 or 79 at a local, state or even regional level. Since you are in Florida, you can enter in your local guild (Palm Beach, I believe or Miami), state and/or SEPPA (which is your region).

But you can send prints directly to National. The rules and forms are now posted on the PPA webside. Hope this helps. :) And good luck.

andiegoodman
01-26-2008, 05:38 AM
P.S. It only counts if you score an 80 or above at a regional show for it to be an automatic merit (only if you enter it in National).

Rick_Massarini
01-26-2008, 06:28 AM
I've been working the print competitions at state, regional and national for many years now. I'm the Photographic Competition Committee Chairman for Louisiana, a member of the Print Committee for Southwest Regional and have been a volunteer at the PPA International judging for many MANY MANY years, so I've got some insight into the process - (in fact, that's one of the the main reasons I'm on the forum in the first place, to try to help others to learn the way the whole process works - 'cause if you know how it works, you stand a better chance at being successful at it !!!), so here's the way they all interact...

The score your image receives at your local guild or state competion has no bearing whatsoever on regional or international competions. Your local or state guild is a really good place to start out and get your image evaluated, since many local guilds and state conventions bring in Masters and sometimes even international jurors to do programs and judging. The exception to this is those states whose state convention hosts a regional judging. For Example - Louisiana has three local guilds which hold print competitions on a monthly basis, we also have a state convention, but those scores are only valid within our state. NOW Texas is different - Southwest Regional is always held in conjunction with Texas, so Texas hosts the convention one year, and SWPPA hosts it the next year, but the judging is always conducted by SWPPA, so it's a regional in addition to being a Texas state judging - but most states do not host PPA affiliated regional judgings. Some states will allow you to send more prints than the regional or national does, in Louisiana, you can send in 6 prints; so you send in your 6 prints to your state, get them judged, then send your best 4 to the regional or national. By the way, you do not have to send images to any preliminary judgings before sending them to your PPA affiliiated regional or national judgings. You can skip the state and regional altogether and send them directly to national, if you like, and as some people do - it's your choice, there's no preliminary judging requirements.

If you get an 80+ scoring print at a state or local judging, depending on the jurors who are there, it might be a good indication that the print is a good candidate to be sent to the regional judging. The "state merit" that you receive may apply towards whatever state awards that your state offers (state fellowship, etc), but does not apply towards any PPA degrees nor is it considered a merit on the regional or national level.

The only place that an image can receive a PPA merit is by being accepted for exhibition at the International Exhibition, and that only ocurrs at the National (International) judging.

Regional Judgings do not give merits either - they give "Seals-of-Approval". The regional judgings all use numerical scores. This is done in order to facilitate the various awards that are given for state highest print case, and the highest scoring print of whatever categories. Images scoring 80+ at a PPA affiliated regional judging will receive an affiliate "Seal-of-Approval" - not a merit. Images bearing valid affiliate "Seals-of-Approval" will be automatically accepted for exhibition, and will receive their merit only when submitted to the VERY NEXT PPA International judging. Images not submitted to the VERY NEXT PPA International judging will not receive merits - so you've got to send it to National, or you don't get your merit.

By the way, I use national and international kind of interchangably when referring to the PPA International judging. We have only one International judging each year (along with a bunch of affiliated regional judgings). When typing quickly on the forum, it's just my quirk that I use the two terms interchangably sometimes since when I first started volunteering it was called the National, and now that we have members from all over the globe (Australia, UK, Mexico, and quite a large number of entries from Asia - China, Japan, Korea, etc...) it is truly an international judging, so now it's named the International Judging - so bear with me, after all, I'm an old guy!!!

If you forget to send your print to national, and send it in the next year, the seal is no longer valid. The print will not be automatically accepted, since the seal is now invalid. The print will be sent to a panel to be rejudged for merit. If the jury at National accepts it for exhibition, it will then become a merit image and will be judged for Loan.

At the National (Inernational) judging, there are no trophies awarded for highest of a given category, only non-merits (Not Accepted), Merits (General Exhibition), and Loans (Loan Collection), so there are no numerical scores given - only thumbs up/down for merit or non-merit. If an image arrives bearing a current "Seal-of-Approval" from a PPA affiliated regional judging, it will automatically be accepted for exhibition and will be judged for possible inclusion in the Loan Colllection (also using a thumbs up/down system, but with a much larger panel of jurors making the decision). If an image is accepted into the Loan Collection, the image will receive a second merit and the image will be retained by PPA for exhibition (you don't get your Loan Collection print back - it goes into a PPA Travelling exhibit), and you will get a note from Marathon Press to send them a file for inclusion in the Loan Collection Book.

The only "Best of" that is judged at the International judging (other than the Loan Collection) is the selection of the "Top 10" albums, and the American Society of Photographers (ASP) selection of their Bronze, Silver and Gold Medallion award winners.

I hope that clarifies things a bit. I know it was a bit long winded, but it's a long process. If you have any specific questions, let me know. I hope this helps.

By the way. we're always looking for volunteers to work at the National Judging - I think that it's an outstanding educational opportunity. Imagine spending a 5 days working with the judges and hearing their comments on thousands of images all day long - you can't help but learn a bunch !!! I believe that it's one of the least expensive educational experiences you can have. Your only cost is your travel and room expenses - and you can get PPA service merits for volunteering to be a print handler - granted, there is work involved, but the education you get is worth it!!! My opinion, of course!!!

Barry_Hayes
01-26-2008, 06:30 AM
Actually Jeff & Mark are only mostly correct. To get a merit for your 80 at regional that regional must a PPA affiliate. I assume most if not all of them are but you may want to check on yours. If you get an 80 at an affiliated regional your print will automatically get a merit and hang at national. To get that merit you must submit it to the next PPA national where it will be accepted for hanging in the general collection and judged for acceptance as a loan print. UNLESS, (as I found out the hard way), the affiliate is not certified to grant a merit for the category in which you entered, in which case the seal you earned will not count for anything.
Allow me to expound. PPA New England is an affiliated competition, but it is not certified to grant seals for the electronic imaging or commercial categories. One may enter prints in these categories, and one may receive a blue, a court, or a vender award, and a seal will go on the print but if one then sends that same print to national in the same category the seal will be stricken and the print will have to stand on it's own merit (or lack thereof).
For example: I am seeking my EI degree so I enter the digital category of images. (If you've seen my work you know they can't go anyplace else anyway.) Two years ago I had two prints score in the mid 90s. Neither hung at national. In effect they went from mid 90s to 79 or less. Which jury was full of beans? Maybe both, maybe neither. I've talked to PEC chairs but I have never received an answer that really satisfies about what I feel is a rather chasm like discrepancy. But after speaking with one PEC person this fall it has become clear to me that most judges simply don't "get" my images. So I guess I need to limit my work to what is currently in vogue, or some folks need to expand their thinking beyond chariesco pregnancies or photoshop Mon&#233;ts. But I digress...
The reason for this situation is the makeup of the affiliated jury. Jurists are supposed to be certified to judge in specific categories; Wedding, portrait, commercial, etc. So for an affiliate to grant EI seals it must have EI certified judges on the panel. Which makes it more difficult & expensive to seat a jury. So the PPA mothership has ruled that only one affiliate, (South East I think) is allowed to award EI degrees that stick at national. I believe commercial is in the same canoe. Considering the current pervasiveness of digital imaging I think this practice has outlived its practicality, but that's another discussion.
As for the "levels" of competition, it usually goes state, regional, then national in degree of difficulty and credibility. State judging panels are USUALY made up of experienced people but are also a place where those new to judging get started and work towards national affiliation. In theory, affiliated judging is held to the same standards as national, which is why the seal is accepted except as noted above. Every panel is different and every judge brings something different in the way of knowledge, experience, and understanding (or cluelessness) to the panel. That's why it's an ensemble cast and not a solo act. BTW there is no requirement that a print follow that order. An image can go directly to national, but if it hangs it will usually no longer be eligible to be entered at state or regional level. So one gets the most milage out of an expensive competition print (and more chances to garner awards) by starting at state level. This also provides a chance to use critique and peer input to improve a print by recomposing or reprinting it. The bottom line is to use every competition as an opportunity to learn how to make your technique & print quality better, get inspiration by seeing what's out there, and then decide if you want to enter work to please the judges or to please yourself.
I hope this answers your question. It's probably way more information than you wanted, but so be it. Brevity is not my strong point.

Jane_Lydick_Staid
01-26-2008, 10:48 AM
Barry,

I recently emailed the print chair of PPANE to ask about the possibility of MEI judging in the future. Havent heard anything back yet.

Mark_Levesque
01-26-2008, 12:12 PM
Images not submitted to the VERY NEXT PPA International judging will not receive merits - so you've got to send it to National, or you don't get your merit.
Unless it is judged to be of merit quality by the jury that sees it, of course. It isn't disqualified from getting a merit if it isn't submitted at the next national comp. It is just judged as if it didn't already have a seal.

Cheri_MacCallum
01-26-2008, 01:50 PM
So you can't just send images to national that have never been judged previously

As it's been stated...yes you can, it just doesn't get a number score. It gets a merit or not and goes loan or not.


I've talked to PEC chairs but I have never received an answer that really satisfies about what I feel is a rather chasm like discrepancy. But after speaking with one PEC person this fall it has become clear to me that most judges simply don't "get" my images

I've seen this so many times especially with abstract pieces. There may be one juror on the panel that scored it higher but was afraid to challenge after a low score was read. I've also seen a print scored low and some brave juror challenged it and got the score into the 90s. All you need is a brave juror who "gets it" to talk it up. But unfortunately that doesn't always happen! But with stuff like that...just keep on doing what you're doing for you at least!

Ron_Jackson
01-26-2008, 02:13 PM
Okay this is all very good information. I guess I got confused by all this when I Goggled Florida Professional Photographers of America and got two completely different organizations. Then to make matters worse, I looked at the local guilds of each and found that joining one does not make you a member of the other and there are two separate dues yada yada yada. It has taken a very long time as most of you know to get me the least bit intertested in competition so I got more confused as to what to join, what was necessary to join, where to submit comp prints that would count at the PPA level etc. So now, I am guessing that not only would there be a dues for state and local level but then I am guessing there is another dues for SEPPA? So, if one wants to be a part of print comp where the merits count with PPA, how many different organizations does one have to pay dues to? I do understand the benefits of education and such at each level but I just want to join what makes it certain for PPA merits at print comp. Of course if I enter and never merit which is a strong possiblity then it's a moot point isn't it? :)

Cheri_MacCallum
01-26-2008, 02:29 PM
I am guessing there is another dues for SEPPA?

There are NO dues for seppa. When you join FPP pr any state affiliated with seppa, you automatically are a member of seppa.By the way...this is the one you want!

http://www.fpponline.org/

I pay dues to GPPA and PPA, that's it! We don't have guilds in GA, we have 4 areas that meet quarterly. THere are no dues required for this here. I think you do pay dues to your guilds in FL. I will be at the fppa convention in August again this year judging, so I hope to see you there!!!

Ron_Jackson
01-26-2008, 02:37 PM
Thanks Cheri. This is the one that Sandra Pearce is trying to get me to join and I just wanted to be sure since there are several. That explanation helps a lot. Sandra is going to call me today and go over everything with me as well. Now I am finally "getting" it. Thanks so much.

Cheri_MacCallum
01-26-2008, 02:39 PM
I just edited my post as you were poseting, so you probably didn't see it...I will be at the fppa convention in August again this year judging, so I hope to see you there!!

Ron_Jackson
01-26-2008, 02:50 PM
I hope so too Cheri. We really didn't get as much time to talk as I wanted to at Imaging. Maybe you and Drew need to come down here for a few days to hang out and we can take that day cruise to the Bahamas for a photo safari and talk.

I just realized something else that troubles me about this process so I am again asking for explanations.

If I join the Florida affiliate to get into print comp that would have any bearing on PPA merits, their convention and competition is not until August. SEPPA is in April so that doesn't work. And, International in Daytona is in July! So I am back to how would I enter a competition that would count if it merited and be eligble for Daytona in July? Sorry about this. I am not the brightest bulb in the pack.

Mark_Levesque
01-26-2008, 03:09 PM
Join the Florida association now and submit to SEPPA in April. In August, submit next year's prints. :)

D._Craig_Flory
01-26-2008, 03:09 PM
Hi Ron;

To add further to your confusion ... in our state, as in a lot of others, we have a state degree. It is like Master but only for our state. I agree about you joining your state group. I've been a member of Professional Photographers of Pa. since 1978. We have 9 or 10 days of top knotch speakers every year for our $200.00 dues. This year we get even more from that. Any member of our state can attend any programs that the Maryland group or Delaware group have ... for free. Any any members of their groups can attend free any of ours.

I wanted to point out to you about the Photographic Craftsman Degree from PPA. It is the 2nd highest degree below Master. I think, given how good you are with Painter, you could easily get Craftsman once you join your state group. I set a goal to get it in 3 years and I got it in 3 years. Let me know if want to know more. Besides your own state group, you have a lot of friends, on here, who can help get you teaching gigs at their state group.

Ron_Jackson
01-26-2008, 03:23 PM
Okay D. Craig, you just made me almost spit my coffee out on my keyboard! That was funny! Me teaching? Like I have something to say that others would want to hear? That makes me laugh. Thanks for the smile. :)

D._Craig_Flory
01-26-2008, 03:38 PM
I have a poll ... to see how many would want to attend a class with Ron teaching how he does his fantastic image presentations. Everyone who would like that please post !!!

Cheri_MacCallum
01-26-2008, 03:52 PM
Maybe you and Drew need to come down here for a few days to hang out and we can take that day cruise to the Bahamas for a photo safari and talk. :D


If you merit at the PPA print comp, they hold your case hostage for 9 months! I had to buy a second print case and cycle the prints! While one case is at ppa, the other is for new work going to state and regionals.

Mark_Levesque
01-26-2008, 03:52 PM
Don't sell yourself short, Ron.

Ron_Jackson
01-26-2008, 04:10 PM
Mark and D. Craig. I think that most artists have one of two personalities. either a huge ego that is vastly over inflated or like me, the one that my work is never quite good enough. I could do this for fifty years and probably never feel that I am at the peak. Now the upside of that is that it keeps you constantly working hard to acheive that higher level so your work constantly improves. I constantly look at other's work and much of the time when I do, I cringe at how inadequate I feel compared to them. So the side effect there is that I never think in terms of having something to say to a group as far as teaching. I have seen many photographers speak who have only been in the business a short time and they were awful. They probably have no idea how negative the comments were after their talk. I don't want to be one of them. Now, I will be the first one to help anyone who seeks my advice or help. It happens all the time and much of it right here on this forum when people email or PM me for help. I have local photographers here that ask for my help and that I mentor but it's always a one on one and I never leave them with anything more than, "that's just my opinion". So, I don't mind feeling a bit inadquate as it keeps me humble and it keeps me striving for more. But I do appreciate the kind thoughts from you guys that I have potential. That does make me smile.

Don_Chick
01-26-2008, 04:29 PM
That was funny! Me teaching? Like I have something to say that others would want to hear? That makes me laugh. Thanks for the smile. :)

Ron,

Absolutely yes! You do have something others would want to hear. You have a unique (as there are no other Ron Jackson's) perspective on what you do. You don't have to do a 6 hour program to get a Speaking merit. You could do a 1 hour program at a Monthly Meeting....

Just remember when you get in front of an audience.. there are 3 (at least) groups sitting in front of you...

Group 1 - You will teach them something
Group 2 - You will inspire them
Group 3 - They won't listen to anybody and they already "know it all"

George_Hawkins
01-26-2008, 05:11 PM
I'll vote for Ron doing a presentation, and I'd attend - depending on venue.
I did not have enough time to converse with him in Tampa!

OK, an idea: we get program chair for Phoenix's Imaging to schedule him. If that's not convenient, WE schedule him at Grand Canyon, for a state association meeting to give merits, under the umbrella of Karen's new Tahoe affiliate! He speaks while we ride the domed railroad car! Northern Arizona could be cold in January, and Ron may not enjoy that, so we book a January cruise before Phoenix. He could come north next summer!

George

Ron_Jackson
01-26-2008, 05:50 PM
You guys are sure good for my weak ego. I would love to do a presentation at the rim of the Grand Canyon. One of my favorite places in the continental US. Sunrise and sunset there are amazing. Winter time it could have a foot of snow on the rim and be 78 degrees at the river below. Always wanted to do that train ride to the canyon but I always drove. Not exactly close to Phoenix but it's closer to Phoenix than where most everybody is right now.

Cheri_MacCallum
01-26-2008, 06:10 PM
I think that most artists have one of two personalities. either a huge ego that is vastly over inflated or like me, the one that my work is never quite good enough.

This is so true! For the ones that have the ego and "know everything" unfortunately become stagnant and not rise above the level of where they are, while the ones who are never satisfied rise well above them!

For the record, I would love to see a program by the great Ron Jackson!

George_Hawkins
01-26-2008, 11:22 PM
This is so true! For the ones that have the ego and "know everything" unfortunately become stagnant and not rise above the level of where they are, while the ones who are never satisfied rise well above them!

For the record, I would love to see a program by the great Ron Jackson!

So often, people in an audience do not take some parts of a program with a grain of salt. A good listener will take a little of this and a little of that, and mesh together for his/her style. One should never try to be a clone of another.

I would listen to Ron's style, watch his images, and proceed.

So Ron, let's keep the eyes & ears open for someone in northern AZ to have some leadership to try to book the RR from the town (I forget Williams?) to the rim, and to make suggestions of other options for accommodations, etc. Does anyone know if there is a guild or affiliate in northern AZ, or is it a statewide organization? One could look at PPA site for an affiliate.

George

andiegoodman
01-27-2008, 12:01 AM
Join the Florida association now and submit to SEPPA in April. In August, submit next year's prints. :)

You got that right, Mark. Ron, call Teri and see if there is a reduced rate or a special rate for joining in the middle of a year. MaryBeth Hamburger should have her phone number. I do not have it with me.

andiegoodman
01-27-2008, 12:06 AM
And..I would love to see Ron do a program. His architechtural work that has been posted is fabulous. And the Grand Canyon sounds great. Love it there.

Ron_Jackson
01-27-2008, 12:12 AM
Andie I talked with Sandra Pearce today and she is call her tomorrow to get this set up. She said they are so excited about my joining they are going to award merits to all my prints without having to submit my work. Ha! Seriously, Sandra is making the call tomorrow and will get me the information. I already have the form printed out and ready.

George there are two thoughts about the Canyon trip. One, it will be in winter and there is always the chance we can't get from Phoenix to Williams due to the winter storms. No way to predict today but that is a strong possibility. The drive from Phoenix to Williams goes through some very rugged mountains and rises to Williams at around 5500 feet elevation. From there to the canyon rim is pretty flat so the train if running wouldn't likely have a problem, just us trying to drive up to Williams. This trip would have to be an extension of the dates of Imaging. Not possible to do it during Imaging without missing a ton of stuff. We'll see what happens as we get closer.

Will_Price
01-27-2008, 04:10 AM
I would be in for a Ron seminar...

George_Hawkins
01-27-2008, 11:44 AM
George there are two thoughts about the Canyon trip. One, it will be in winter and there is always the chance we can't get from Phoenix to Williams due to the winter storms. No way to predict today but that is a strong possibility. The drive from Phoenix to Williams goes through some very rugged mountains and rises to Williams at around 5500 feet elevation. From there to the canyon rim is pretty flat so the train if running wouldn't likely have a problem, just us trying to drive up to Williams. This trip would have to be an extension of the dates of Imaging. Not possible to do it during Imaging without missing a ton of stuff. We'll see what happens as we get closer.

Ron, and interested members,

Elevations is interesting to know.
For sure, not during the three days of convention. I had thought before, but maybe after is better in case of weather delays. Wednesday-Friday???
Definitely a great thought to pursue, and to throw around ideas. I have no clue the transportation: rent vehicle(s) to go from Phoenix to Williams, or does public transportation exist? Next time I'm near good bookstore, I'm going to get maps. Should start a thread on this subject?

George

Ron_Jackson
01-27-2008, 01:14 PM
George it's about 175 miles up I-17 from Phoenix to Flagstaff then over to Williams. Phoenix is low desert around 1500 feet elevation and Flagstaff and Williams are high desert at around 6700 feet. I have been snowed in twice in Flagstaff because of the elevation. The train runs only once during that time of year leaving at 10 AM from Williams. The cost with the Observation car reservation is $250.37!!! :eek: The reason is you have to buy a coach class ticket at $88.95 then the upgrade ticket for the4 observation car is $ $125 and you have to buy a rim tour which the cheapest is $40.95. And you are there about 3 hours at the canyon and that's it. Here is the link:
http://www.canyontours.us/add-to-cart/index.cfm?form.tour_id=6292&tour_id=6292&clone_id=89&tdate=1/31/2008&form_errors=no_primary_rate

George_Hawkins
01-27-2008, 01:45 PM
George it's about 175 miles up I-17 from Phoenix to Flagstaff then over to Williams. Phoenix is low desert around 1500 feet elevation and Flagstaff and Williams are high desert at around 6700 feet. I have been snowed in twice in Flagstaff because of the elevation. The train runs only once during that time of year leaving at 10 AM from Williams. The cost with the Observation car reservation is $250.37!!! :eek: The reason is you have to buy a coach class ticket at $88.95 then the upgrade ticket for the4 observation car is $ $125 and you have to buy a rim tour which the cheapest is $40.95. And you are there about 3 hours at the canyon and that's it. Here is the link:
http://www.canyontours.us/add-to-cart/index.cfm?form.tour_id=6292&tour_id=6292&clone_id=89&tdate=1/31/2008&form_errors=no_primary_rate

You have done some GREAT homework! I'll go to the links!
Maybe some AZPPA people can bring forth some options for more time at the Canyon?

Ron_Jackson
01-27-2008, 01:51 PM
Having been there many times, the greatest single option is just drive. It's about three hours to Williams from Phoenix and then another hour plus to the canyon rim. There is plenty of lodging at the canyon. But again, January is a bit of Russian roulette with the weather there. One storm oves through and you're stuck. Beautiful no matter what time of year but nicest around April or May.

George_Hawkins
01-27-2008, 02:44 PM
Having been there many times, the greatest single option is just drive. It's about three hours to Williams from Phoenix and then another hour plus to the canyon rim. There is plenty of lodging at the canyon. But again, January is a bit of Russian roulette with the weather there. One storm oves through and you're stuck. Beautiful no matter what time of year but nicest around April or May.

Ron,

THANKS for the research!!!

I started another thread:

http://ourppa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10232

Rick_Massarini
01-27-2008, 05:57 PM
Unless it is judged to be of merit quality by the jury that sees it, of course. It isn't disqualified from getting a merit if it isn't submitted at the next national comp. It is just judged as if it didn't already have a seal.

The point is that some people think that a "Sealed" print is a merit, and they don't bother to send it to National, thinking that the seal on the print indicates that the image is a merit and they believe that the merit has been recorded. The merit is not recorded until the print goes to National, until then it is just a name on a list of expected sealed entries. If a print is "Sealed" at SEPPA or SWPPA or any other affiliated regional, there is no merit recorded at PPA Headquarters. It must go to the National judging to receive it's merit.

Another point is that some people think that a "Sealed" print is a merit no matter when they submit it - this year or the next. If the print is not submitted to the VERY NEXT PPA National judging, the seal becomes invalid the following year. The print is not disqualified due to an expired seal, but it is no longer automatically accepted. Prints with expired seals are routed to the "unjudged print" rooms to be judged again for merit. If that panel accepts it, it becomes a merit. If that panel turns it down, it becomes an Unaccepted Entry and is returned to the maker unexhibited and without a merit, even though it was "Sealed" the previous year.

Rick_Massarini
01-27-2008, 06:02 PM
So now, I am guessing that not only would there be a dues for state and local level but then I am guessing there is another dues for SEPPA? So, if one wants to be a part of print comp where the merits count with PPA, how many different organizations does one have to pay dues to? :)

If you are a member of your state association that is a member of the PPA affiliated regional, then you are a member of that regional through your state association. There are dues for the regional associations, but those dues are paid for you to the regional associations by your state associations. Professional Photographers of Louisiana pays dues to the Southwest Professional Photographers Association (our regional) for every member of our association every year. I could be wrong, but am relatively certain that the other regionals operate in the same manner as SWPPA.

andiegoodman
01-28-2008, 12:10 AM
If you are a member of your state association that is a member of the PPA affiliated regional, then you are a member of that regional through your state association. There are dues for the regional associations, but those dues are paid for you to the regional associations by your state associations. Professional Photographers of Louisiana pays dues to the Southwest Professional Photographers Association (our regional) for every member of our association every year. I could be wrong, but am relatively certain that the other regionals operate in the same manner as SWPPA.

Not for PPANE. The dues for regional are separate from any state association.

Rick_Massarini
01-28-2008, 06:24 AM
Not for PPANE. The dues for regional are separate from any state association.

Yeah, it figures that you Yankees would do things differently from how we Southerners do it !!! Cheri says that SEPPA has no dues and SWPPA dues are handled through the states - maybe that's why SEPPA and SWPPA have such high attendance at their conventions !!! If you're a member of your state down here, you can't forget to pay your regional dues....

Jane_Lydick_Staid
01-28-2008, 10:29 AM
Yeah, it figures that you Yankees would do things differently from how we Southerners do it !!! Cheri says that SEPPA has no dues and SWPPA dues are handled through the states - maybe that's why SEPPA and SWPPA have such high attendance at their conventions !!! If you're a member of your state down here, you can't forget to pay your regional dues....

Interesting Rick. Attendance at our regional has not been what it used to be. I doubt the New England states would go for that though.

andiegoodman
01-29-2008, 02:34 AM
Yeah, it figures that you Yankees would do things differently from how we Southerners do it !!! Cheri says that SEPPA has no dues and SWPPA dues are handled through the states - maybe that's why SEPPA and SWPPA have such high attendance at their conventions !!! If you're a member of your state down here, you can't forget to pay your regional dues....

When I was a FPP member, I thought that $5.00 of my dues to the state actually went to SEPPA. Am I wrong?

Cheri_MacCallum
01-29-2008, 03:32 AM
When I was a FPP member, I thought that $5.00 of my dues to the state actually went to SEPPA. Am I wrong?

You are correct. It's built into the state dues so you don't actually have to send separated dues to seppa.

Rick_Massarini
01-29-2008, 03:50 AM
You are correct. It's built into the state dues so you don't actually have to send separated dues to seppa.

The same is true with Louisiana. We send a fee to SWPPA for each member of our State Association, so a portion of our State Membership dues does go to SWPPA. We pay dues for every one of our members, but, not a large number of our members take advantage of their free (or included, however you look at it) SWPPA membership by submitting prints and attending the regional convention. Attendance at the SWPPA Convention is free for all of the member states active members who have paid their dues before the date of the convention. If you are not a member of your state association, then SWPPA convention registration is $199.00 (which is more than the Louisiana State dues!).